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Episode 13

Rena [00:00:02] Hello, listeners, and welcome to This Is Howe We Do It. I'm your host, Rena, a graduate assistant director of the Howe Writing Across the Curriculum program. In our last episode, we talked about the concept of peer review and the role of peer feedback in our classrooms, but with an added insight into the impact of incorporating mediated peer review platforms such as EliReview and Critic into this process. We heard from guests Will Cheshire and Kelly Ruszek, participants in a cross-disciplinary faculty learning community here at Miami. That researched peer review and these different platforms and shared their takeaways on the significance of peer feedback and integrating this process into the classroom. If you haven't had a chance to check out this episode yet, make sure that you listen to this as well because it pairs with today's episode. Last episode provided that faculty and teaching perspective on peer review, while today's episode we're joined by ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to offer a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ perspective on Peer Review and more specifically, ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs that also work as writing center consultants and are used to giving feedback on peers writing as part of their daily work in the writing center. So joining us today is Katie Dykeisen, a third year undergraduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, double majoring in biology and psychology with a minor in molecular biology. Katie's current research in Dr. Castillo's lab researches the genetic components of reproductive behavior for fruit flies and she plans to attend graduate school for a master's degree in genetic counseling. She also just recently found out that she'll be doing the undergraduate summer scholars program here at Miami. How exciting, Katie? We're also joined today by Charlotte Melville, a second year undergraduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, double majoring in English literature and philosophy with a French minor. She's also the treasurer for the English Honor Society, Sigma Tau Delta, and is a scholar leader. She also recently just landed an internship with the League of Women Voters of Ohio. Go Charlotte! After taking our consultant training course last spring together, Katie and Charlotte have both been consultants at the Howe Writing Center for the past year. I invited Katie and Charlotte to be on the pod today because we've recently been working on more collaborations between the two sides of the Howe Center for Writing Excellence. If you remember long ago, almost a year now, in the teaser for our podcast, we explained a little bit about the two sides of the Howe Center for writing excellence, our writing across the curriculum side where we really support teachers and the teaching of writing. And our Howe Writing Center side where we support writers, whether that be ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, faculty, staff, working on any type of writing projects that they can come in and talk to a consultant about. This semester, we've piloted a new sort of collaboration between our writing across the curriculum side and our writing center by inviting writing center consultants to help join us in facilitating workshops for faculty and teachers and offer that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ perspective and ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ feedback on the different assignments or policies or things that we're working on with faculty. This collaboration began during a two-part workshop earlier this spring, titled Engaging an Effective Assignment Design. In both parts of this workshop, faculty participants were provided with different heuristics for thinking about how to design assignments with both thinking about how to design assignments that forefront the purpose, the audience, the genre, as well as elements and principles of accessibility and readability in the actual document design of our prompts. After being provided with these heuristics to think about and apply to their assignments, our writing center consultants then went around and sat with groups of faculty, talked to them about their assignments gave them a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ perspective and answered questions. A few weeks ago, we then held a workshop on AI syllabus policies and we invited a panel of Howe Writing Center consultants to share their research on AI. In the fall, 2024 semester in the Howe writing center, all the consultants did research projects on AI as part of their work, to learn more about how it's impacting their work as consultants, you've heard about some of this research in another podcast that I'll shout out with Meredith Perkins, Kylie Mullis and Allie Britton-Heitz, where they shared about their research on AI and consulting. So as a former writing center consultant myself and still involved in writing centers, I can't seem to get away from them. It's just one of my favorite spaces in the world. I'm just so excited to chat with these two superstar consultants today about their processes for giving peer feedback, their experiences as ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs and how becoming a consultant and working with different writers across Miami has shaped that. ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ to the This Is Howe We Do It podcast, you two. We really appreciate you making the time to talk with listeners about your thoughts on peer view. Giving feedback to other ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers in general through your experiences with consulting and in classes, as well as your experiences participating and providing feedback on our policies and assignments that our recent faculty development workshops brought in. So you've just been giving feedback all around campus in various different contexts that we're excited to hear about today. But we begin each of our podcast conversations by asking our guests, what's the last thing that you've written that you're excited about or proud of? I know we're in the midst of a heavy finals time, so you might be thinking about final papers, but maybe something else comes to mind. So Katie, why don't you start? What comes to mind for you?

Katie [00:05:12] Well, as a bio major, I write a lot of lab reports. And so I guess the most recent thing that I have written is a lab report for my microbioclass. And it was about DNA analysis, PCR, which is really interesting to me and something that I was wanting to look into in my research as well. So I would say I was pretty proud of that.

Rena [00:05:31] Yeah, so it stood out among all the lab reports as one that was extra special and connected to your research interests.

Katie [00:05:37] Yeah, 100%.

Rena [00:05:38] Super cool, so interesting. How about you, Charlotte?

Charlotte [00:05:41] Yeah, I turned in an essay that was a close reading of a short book called Pale Horse, Pale Rider for a literature class I was in. And I'd really struggled through this paper. I was like, ugh, I feel like I'm going crazy. This doesn't make sense. But kept pushing through and it came back and I got an 100 on it, which like is crazy for an essay. And it had really nice feedback and it just made me feel like, oh I can do this.

Rena [00:06:05] That's always so nice too, especially when it's one that you've put a lot into and you're sort of stressed about it and then to really get that validation in the end that it turned out well, it all came together and get good feedback. So good things to celebrate in your writing lives. Thanks so much for sharing that with us and thinking about just the different things that you're writing in your day-to-day as ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs that also I'm sure in different ways are influenced by your consultant work. So part of, as we talked about in the intro that we asked Katie and Charlotte to be here today is because they've been involved in so many different things around giving feedback on writing both for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs and faculty across campus this semester. So we're gonna really unpack all of that together and see how those experiences are similar or different and what they've learned as consultants thus far that's really influenced how they give feedback or interact with other people's writing. But first let's just start with your ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ lives before even thinking about who you are as consultants though I'm sure that's impossible to separate from your identity at this point as ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. But thinking about your experiences in different courses you're in such different disciplines both kind of covering our science and STEM area as well as our humanities. So what is peer review looked like in your different courses in those disciplines?

Katie [00:07:19] I guess I can go first. Peer review in like the bio world is very minimal and very limited. If we do peer review at all it's most of the time asynchronously and they're kind of just give a few comments. Here's one thing they did well, here's one they did they need help on or something like that. And half the time your peer reviewer won't submit theirs to you so you don't even get the feedback anyway. So that's really unfortunate but in some of my other courses that I've been in. I'm in a women's studies course right now which is really cool. The peer review is a lot more structured which I think is good for people who aren't as consultant minded as we are because we work in the writing center. Well, what's one thing that they're doing well? What's one that they need work on? And it's like for each individual paragraph or section of the paper which I think can be really beneficial for a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ if done properly.

Rena [00:08:08] Yeah, it's interesting to compare the asynchronous kind of mentality to what it looks like to sit down with someone synchronously as I'm sure then your consultant experience look very different from what you were used to in the bio classes. How about for you Charlotte?

Charlotte [00:08:20] Yeah, I would say I do peer review in at least half of my classes and I know particularly in some of them they, some of the are structured and some of them are not, it just depends but I have some classes where we do the Liz Lerman feedback. The Liz Lermon form of peer review I don't know if you're familiar but it's a way to give critiques of art in particular and it's interesting it's about the person who's creating who's writing the piece, ask some questions and then the people who are reading it ask some questions. So that's interesting. But then sometimes it's just leave some feedback and I don't know there's definitely a wide variety of experiences.

Rena [00:08:54] Yeah, that's sort of what I was expecting almost across your two different experiences but then it's even more important I think to recognize the variety within depending on which class you're sitting in or what instructor, how they structure it or if they maybe choose to like let it be a little looser. It doesn't have as much structure it's just kind of a moment in the experience of class where you turn to somebody and talk. So it can take so many different forms and I think that that can have different outcomes and benefits. And sometimes I think that's disciplinary specific but like I said before I think sometimes it's more just the context, the individual, et cetera. So then as you moved into being consultants last year how did that compare to what you had experienced prior in terms of peer review and peer feedback? What surprised you or was wildly different and what felt familiar?

Katie [00:09:42] So I've been consulting for this was coming up on my two year mark which is really fun.

Rena [00:09:46] Wow. Celebrate.  That's a long time of consulting. Think about how many writers at Miami that you've talked to.

Katie [00:09:53] I know it's crazy to think about. And it's also like crazy to think about how many have come back to cause I'm like what? I'm actually kind of helping.

Rena [00:09:59] Right. They want to come back and see you. You're making an impact.

Katie [00:10:03] Yeah, a hundred percent. As I moved into the writing center space it was a lot different for me because like I said, coming from a science background very little peer review more just do it yourself, turn it in kind of vibes. So coming into the consulting space was definitely a shift in how I view my writing a lot. It's helped me a lot as well in my writing and looking at other people's writing where I am able to think about it more not necessarily critically, but analytically maybe. In a sense of more structured and broken down feedback rather than kind of just like a oh, I think you did this good overall. So it's really been nice to help format my writing as well in a different form and way because if looking at other people's papers analytically has helped me sit down with my writing more and go through the writing process more fully rather than writing a paper in four hours and turning it in which is what I did in high school. So I can actually spend time on this paper and really break it down for every level which I think has been really helpful for writers and the people who I've talked to in the consulting space as well.

Rena [00:11:01] Yeah, I think two things that you said there that I wanna highlight. One, that reading other people's writing and taking on that peer lens to give feedback makes you a stronger writer. That's part of why we implemented it to so many writing courses is because it's not just a benefit for the other person to get feedback. It really strengthens your own perspective on your writing to see other people's approaches. But I think the other thing that you're mentioning that I wanna touch on is it gave you a more nuanced or specific way of what to give feedback on. Like you said, it's so easy to go, that's a good paper, great job, great start. But what can you specifically point to or ask a question about or prompt them to think differently? And like you said you're kind of taking that more analytical lens of the paper overall and thinking about it in context. So I can imagine that that really changed you as a writer but then also when you are given chances to give feedback in those classes, your approach to it. What about you Charlotte?

Charlotte [00:11:54] For me, I think starting to learn about consulting and what the best practices are was very illuminating and validating at the same time because I'd had a lot of negative experiences with peer feedback in the past, some good ones, some really negative ones. And I think being able to then sit down and go, okay, like why did some of these things work and why did these things not work was really helpful and process what is actually valuable feedback for the writing process because, I don't know, it just gave me a lot of language to understand this very specific mode that happens. And I think I definitely agree with the idea that it has helped my writing a lot. So much. I can see how I've improved significantly at the point where I feel like I'm able to give my own peer feedback to myself. Obviously we still need our peers.

Rena [00:12:42] No, it's true, you can take on a different lens to your own writing because you've done it so many different times with other writers that you're able to put yourself in those different shoes. But something you said I really wanna unpack a little bit more, Charlotte, you said you've had a lot of negative experiences with peer review. And I know that when I'm, no matter what class I'm teaching, when it's the day when we're gonna really talk about what is peer review, what does this mean, why do we do it, et cetera. I always start with like, let's unpack all those negative trauma experiences with peer review. The red pen, the peer that didn't even care or just let you sit there and not help at all or whatever they are. There's so many different situations. And I think that's oftentimes what makes peer review in some situations seem more like busy work or yeah, it's something, you know, we'll talk to somebody, but not the same generative experience that I think a lot of writers get. When they come to the writing center and they're able to sit down with someone one-on-one, even though it's the same dynamic, you're sitting with someone else, a peer that could be presumably in your class. But there's a lot that goes into the consultant training as you illuminate in your responses that really help you to take a different perspective on someone else's work. And I think that's really important to recognize though that, A lot of people don't have those great experiences with peer review. So let's just unpack those for just a second. Get out the trauma. When you were thinking back to those negative experiences, what comes to mind?

Charlotte [00:14:04] Yes, there's two specific negative experiences I've had.

Rena [00:14:08] You have them numbered, panned out.

Charlotte [00:14:11] Yes, the first one was a peer review in class that was not particularly structured. We were just told to swap and read each other's work. And this was after I had become a writing consultant. So I was asking my peer reviewer a lot of questions. I was all like, what do you think of this theme? Does this work well? And my peer viewer just wrote in and was, ooh, you misused a semicolon there. And that was the only feedback she gave me even though I had asked all of these questions that were really just trying to probe out some deeper, more global issues perhaps. We would say more overarching concerns. And it was just this one situation where I'd misused a semicolon, which was especially upsetting because I had literally just written it. I hadn't even re-read it. We were writing it there in class. So that was pretty devastating. And the other times where I had to, I had mandatory feedback that I had to do with a group in just similar situation where. I was not getting the kinds of answers that I had specifically asked for.

Rena [00:15:12] You had these things you wanted feedback on. You actually wanted to engage in a conversation about your own writing. And this one semicolon in this one sentence put a whole halt to the conversation that could have been about all of the things that you wanted to, engage with another writer about your ideas about, right? And you fixed that semicolon. And I'm sure that maybe it was, maybe misused, but what did that do for the overall paper? And I think that's one of the things we talk a lot about in the Writing Center, as you noted, like global, the higher order things that are really about your ideas and your voice and art. Nitpicking sentences in a very early draft or whatnot, that is a common experience in the peer review setting where maybe not enough direction or not enough experience giving feedback on writing leads people to take an easy out of like, oh yeah, you just forgot something here. Line edit your paper instead of really engage with your ideas, which is tricky. So are there any other particular principles or strategies that you feel you've adopted in your process for giving feedback since being trained at the Writing Center that now are just kind of a part of, like you said, even when you're looking at your own writing, trying to take a different perspective, what comes to mind as like standout things that you've learned?

Katie [00:16:23] One thing we talked a lot about in 481 was the quote sandwich kind of vibe, where like you say one nice thing, kind of give a critique, and then you say another nice thing. So that way the critique feels a little less icky sometimes because it's hard to give feedback to especially those who are your peers. I've had a lot of people come to me from the Writing Center and they're in my classes. And I'm just like, ooh, this is awkward and scary because I know I'm in your class, but you don't know I am in your class. And if I see you, you're gonna realize I'm in your class. And so it's this weird touch and go kind of thing. So it definitely have adopted that kind of, say something nice. I really like what you're doing here because you maybe apply what you've done to this section to another section that's not maybe pooling its weight sort of vibe. And I've definitely applied that to my own writing too. I'll go through my paper and word dump and like word vomit onto a page because that's how I've always started my papers. That's what works best for me. I do not outline and Lizzie would probably hate me for saying that.

Rena [00:17:19] No, everyone has a different process.

Katie [00:17:23] So I've always like word vomited and just word dumped on a page. And then I'll go back through them. Okay, I like this sentence a lot, but I don't feel like it works in this section. Where can I move it to a different section to benefit? I also write things in red that I know doesn't work, but I know I need to get that point out in somewhere in the paper. And so I've adopted that going the other way into my writing center practices. I'll be like, okay, this is a really good point. Let's highlight it. Let's see where it could potentially fit better, later in your paper. And a lot of the times the writer across from me was, yeah, I understand what you're saying. And then we'll continue reading. They're like, wait, I have an idea. And then they'll move that quote or something into that other spot, which I think is really cool to see.

Rena [00:18:02] Yeah, absolutely. They're taking permission to really engage with the process. That's what a lot of what you said reminded me is just these different process steps that you're able to implement into your own writing process when you're doing your things, but then also into the sessions with writers to say, hey, this is what I do too. Like, hey, have you tried this? And maybe even a strategy that doesn't work for you, like outlining might work for them and you push them towards it. So, and I think that's important too, recognizing that what works for you isn't gonna work for every writer that comes in and you kind of have to see what works for them and be adaptable and know that just because what works for them doesn't work for you, doesn't mean it's a bad thing and help them take ownership of their own process. But to pick up on what you were saying too, I think your point about the sandwich is really important, which kind of leads me into my next question about giving honest feedback while being kind or supportive, right? Because the writing center isn't a place just to provide complete validation, though that is a lot of what I think we are able to do for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs is point to them where they're doing things really well and where there are strengths in their writing. But we also wanna be there to help them actually do things beyond a misplaced semicolon, right? Engage in deeper conversation and critical thinking about what the entire assignment might be or the task at hand and how they can approach it in different ways and get all their ideas out and get their voice out while still following whatever expectations have been set in front of them. So. Yeah, jump in and hit me with some principles

Charlotte [00:19:28] I've got some principles for you. So because I've had such negative experiences where I feel like people aren't listening to what I want feedback on in peer review, I very much focus on the writer guiding the appointment or if I'm in class, like the peer guiding how they want the review to go. And the best strategy that I have for that that I've kind of figured out is when we're reading through it, after every paragraph. In advance, I'll tell the writer, hey, what I want you to do while I'm reading this is read it along with me and tell me one thing that you really like about each paragraph and then one thing that you're like, oh, I don't know, this doesn't seem to sit right or does this sound right or like something you have a question about. And that's how I structure most of my appointments because it allows us to one, like celebrate the successful things that they're doing, which reinforces it. Second, allows them to choose what they want the feedback on and also tries to encourage them to identify what those things are in their own reading and then it gives me a place to start from because so then I'm not just like, where do I begin with this feedback? Because sometimes there's a lot of things and sometimes there are a few things where I'm like, oh, I don't know if I should mention it, I don't know if it's worth it but it allows them to then choose and focus on, I can normally then suss out where they're wanting feedback the most.

Rena [00:20:43] I am obsessed with that strategy because it is so writer centered throughout. It's so easy to start the consultation. Well, what are you here to work on today? Let's set the agenda based on what it is that you would like help with. But then you start reading, you start to lose sight perhaps of that original goal or agenda but that strategy really allows you to continuously check in and as you said, both celebrate, this is what's going well throughout as well as really have them take this critical eye as they're reading through to try to find something that they'd like to talk more about and maybe you talk more it and it's like, actually no, I think that is working and you move on but it allows them to really ensure that they feel like solid and good about every part and they understand it well, they've talked about it with somebody, they've taken ownership over it. I don't know, I just think that's such a great way to move through and keep the focus on them and their needs and wants.

Charlotte [00:21:33] And it makes my job easier. Well, I'll still give feedback but by having them start it, I can kind of figure out if they're having concerns about their clarity or the sentence structure based on what kind of things that they're  asking me about.

Rena [00:21:45] And I think to connect that too with peer feedback in course settings, I always have my ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs do like a quick write before they even know who they're working with where it's like, what are a few things that you think are doing really well and a few thing you'd like to talk to somebody about because it can, like I said, go off the rails so easily when you're just kind of opening a conversation and you're unsure of where to lead it and it also, again, takes the onus off the person who's giving feedback. Where they're not trying to find what you need or want, they're able to take your direction and kind of move with you through it. They feel like a partner in your project but you're still taking the lead instead of someone else trying to take your paper off to the side and give feedback on it without actually knowing what it is that you're looking for. I think that's so helpful. Thank you for sharing that. So let's talk a little bit about the different feedback formats that you use in writing center consultations and this came to mind too when you mentioned, Katie, that in a lot of settings, you've had an asynchronous feedback and I think for a variety of reasons, I've done both as a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, I've done both as teacher. I think, for different classes and scheduling and purposes, there's reasons why we would use different modalities rather in order to give peer feedback. I know through the writing center specifically, ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs can come in person. They can also get synchronous online or asynchronous online feedback and I think those options are also available in a lot of course settings for how we can organize peer review, whether it be on Canvas and ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs do it in their own time or they do it within class, during the class period, together, talking, or even working on their computers. There's so many different setups, I guess is my point. And there's benefits and challenges to all of those setups of giving feedback. But how do you think that that mode affects your process or does it? Maybe it doesn't and you've kind of thought through a similar process no matter which modality, but talk a little bit about how you think that experience is different for both you as the giver of feedback and the receivers.

Katie [00:23:42] I, for my first year was like very much in person and now I've slowly shifted more towards that written online sort of vibe. So my first-year I ran a lot of my in-person appointments very similar to Charlotte's. We're gonna go through like this paragraph, tell me one thing you like, one thing that you don't like, or okay, what feels weird to you as you're reading that. And sometimes they'll say nothing and I'm like, okay, I agree. Sometimes there is nothing to work on, which is really important that they know that too. And I feel like a lot of the times our jobs as consultants is just to be like, you're a good writer. Let's drill it through your head, please. Cause that took me a while to get there. It's gonna take a lot of people a while to get there. My written onlines, I kind of going back to like that really analytical mindset. When I'm in my written online I tend to be probably a little bit more analytical and critical than I should be just because I have nothing really sometimes to go off of or okay, well, if I was writing this paper I would want as much feedback as possible. So I try to give as much as I can but then sometimes I'll get a paper and written online. I don't really know if there's too much to change just maybe a few grammar mistakes. Otherwise I think it's pretty good for the assignment. And it depends a lot of the times too about on that like written online or in-person form, what are they looking for? Because on a written online when they're like, help me develop my ideas. I'm like. I can kind of help you do that. I really think that's important but that's gonna lead to less feedback than if they were in person and I was able to ask them questions and prompt things in front of them. So I think a lot of the times when dealing with those different modalities it's about also what they want because written online works really well for those grammar sentence level, APA citations and stuff like that. But if you're asking me if you understand the assignment I don't know because you're not in front me half the time. And especially, I feel like that comes along in peer review in my classes as well. My lab reports and stuff like that doing that asynchronously is okay. Most of the time it's not my favorite but it is okay because a lot of times in a lab report it's either you did it right or you did a wrong. So it works really well sometimes for that and also sometimes lab reports papers can be up to 10 pages long and nobody wants to sit in a lab room and do that. And we also half the time we don't have time because we're doing other labs. But like my women and gender studies in English classes having a person physically in front of me works amazing for me because I'm like, okay, well, did we like this? Did we like, this? Did we like this? Can you help me with this? So I think it just depends a lot of times what you're looking for and what you are writing.

Rena [00:26:06] Very contextual, right? When I think what you're making me realize is the relational conversational report that you get to have when you work with someone in person is really beneficial for that process based writing where you're really trying to get out your ideas. You're trying to organize them. You need to talk it out with someone that requires a little more interaction that can happen in the moment. Whereas that asynchronous sort of feedback. Can be more beneficial when you're going through it more meticulously and the more perhaps line by line or convention by convention. What are the expectations of a lab report? Is it following this? I think that can suit that purpose a little bit better but you're really talking about generating ideas and developing something throughout the process being able to have that person in front of you. It's hard to replace. What do you think Charlotte?

Charlotte [00:26:52] No, I agree. I was going to say something similar because I do mostly in person appointments because I really value that kind of process. I really value being able to guide a writer into revelations or conclusions or to teach them how to read their writing with a more critical eye, et cetera, et Cetera. See them learn. See them learned. I love that part. So for that reason, I think in-person feedback is a lot better for that type of thing. But there's always going to be people who are like, I just need to make sure I'm doing my citations correctly and that's what written online is great for.

Rena [00:27:27] And the convenience of it and access.

Charlotte [00:27:29] Yes, the convenience, the access. Yes, all the things, but especially for those, I just to make that I'm just doing it right because I prefer the more process writing. It's very hard for me to give her an online feedback because often it tends to lean into more like, ah, this is what you need to change or this is like what this convention is. And it's hard to not have that face-to-face interaction and know that if your feedback is being received in a helpful way or not.

Rena [00:27:54] Totally, and I don't think that's a Charlotte problem. I think that that's an everyone problem. I think, again, that speaks back to your point, Katie, about the asynchronous feedback experience you were having before and how it just left a lot to be desired when it came, and yours too, when there's not someone who is clearly engaged with your work interacting about it. There's just, it kind of almost makes the experience moot. I hate to put it that way. Anytime you can get feedback is wonderful, but if the person is not really able to bring themselves to that moment and engage with you in the questions that are important to you, then it can't always be as useful. And I think that's where that asynchronous can sometimes, it has its place and purpose. And you know we're thankful that we have that component, both in the writing center and I think in coursework, it's helpful that we tools like on canvas and things where we can have ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs interact in that way. But it's still hard to replace that in-person kind of experience when we can dedicate time and space to just talking about writing, seeing each other's, and what you said earlier too, Katie, about so much of your job is like telling everyone you're a good writer, I think. Spending time giving each other feedback no matter what setting, that is part of that. It's in helping to build your confidence and say, you can write, we both wrote this thing, we brought it here, we can both get feedback and improve it, but that way everyone feels like that's a piece of their identity and abilities.

Charlotte [00:29:11] The most important thing that the writing center does is just like. I want, the number one thing out of my appointments is I want them to be feeling better about the writing.

Rena [00:29:19] Yeah, personally. Yeah, and better about themselves as writers. And I think, like I said too, in so many English courses we do, that is a normal part of the process, but not always. But in a lot of other disciplinary courses, sometimes it can be a way to really forefront that the writing you're doing is important and matters and is speaking to a particular audience and purpose, so. All right, well let's jump to for the sake of time. Your experiences this semester, partnering with us over in the Howe Writing Across the Curriculum program, we give a series of workshops every semester on a variety of different things related to teaching writing. This semester we did a lot on assignment design and also thinking about how accessibility and readability plays into the design of an assignment for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. And then of course, we can't avoid the hot topic of the last few years, we've been doing plenty of stuff on AI. And so one of the things we did this semester was a workshop on AI syllabus policies where we specifically wanted to. Spotlight the ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ perspective and experience and what are ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs hearing from their different instructors and then have ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs talk to faculty about what it looks like to develop an AI policy that has all of these different things in mind. We don't have to unpack all of those different things, there were various workshops, but we had you all there during these workshops to offer your perspective as ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, but also then to serve as someone for faculty to converse with, get some feedback on. Get a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ's perspective of someone that's not necessarily sitting in their class, but has a lot of experience reading different assignments and talking with ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs about their instructor's AI policy or lack thereof. So just talk a little bit about that experience. What did you think was especially valuable? Why did you wanna do it? Or why did you agree to it after our coaxing of you both? And how did that compare when giving feedback to faculty to what it's like giving feedback to a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ or a peer?

Katie [00:31:11] I definitely wanted to do it because it was using my writing center skills in a different way, in a difference space, because I'd never consulted with faculty before, but even from my own personal experience as a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, I will look at my professor's assignment design or descriptions of their assignment, and I'll be like, okay, well, this doesn't really make too much sense.

Rena [00:31:29] You can't help it, you have that lens now.

Katie [00:31:31] I know, sometimes it's a blessing and a curse. And so it was really a unique experience to talk to faculty who were nowhere remotely close to my disciplines and, oh, I could help. This is something that's really cool and really unique. And I'm always loving, I love accessibility stuff and how, like making things pretty, pretty much. Canva's my best friend, in the world. So it was just like a cool experience, to use my writing center skills in a different way, switching to like the AI panel. It was cool to talk about my experiences with AI because I feel like I've had so many over the past year with, in the STEM world. Professors don't really have AI policies or if they do, it's just don't use AI for this assignment and then it's not directly written in their syllabus. And then talking with faculty was a really cool experience too, because half of them, I didn't even know we had to have an AI policy. I thought Miami had one and it's like, we don't. That's why it's so confusing and stressful for your ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. So it was a cool and unique experience to use my writing center skills.

Charlotte [00:32:34] I love working with the faculty. I think I've done four workshops now and what I love about it is, I mean, this is gonna be a blanket statement, but they're always so eager to engage and it's clear that they've like thought a lot about these things and that they enjoy talking through them. And I think that's so cool. I love enthusiastic people and our faculty is very enthusiastic about the work they do and teaching ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs and I adore it. But I think especially it's validating because I have had so many assignments, just didn't have enough information or just weren't what I was expecting. It would be to me, helping the faculty write the assignments, think about their policies or, you know, whatever. Think about their curriculum. It's doing public health versus being like a medical doctor, where by making the assignments better, we help the writing get better overall, instead of helping an individual writer, we're helping a lot of writers at the same time. I think that's so cool.

Rena [00:33:30] It is. And you're helping the faculty as a writer too and helping them see themselves as a writer. We think it's hard for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to take on that identity. We are still sometimes trying to convince faculty that they are writers with expertise, even though they've been writing things to get all the way to where they got to now, but it's a hard identity to take on. I don't even think we sometimes take that identity on when we're creating assignments. We're not thinking about the writing process of a prompt or like how I'm designing it for accessibility. It takes extra attention sometimes, I think, to go back and think through those things and have those conversations in community with different perspectives. And then most importantly, the ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ's perspective, the audience, the reader of the actual assignment. And most of the times... We haven't really asked for feedback or gotten that side of the perspective before we're handing it out to however many ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs and assuming that they'll be able to just follow it no problem. So useful to have you all there. And the faculty just raved about it. As you said, we have such dedicated faculty who come out and spend their time wanting to better their things, wanting to innovate their pedagogy. Your support then made it possible for them to see things they would have never been able to on their own. All right, last question for today. Let's try to leave our listeners with something, a takeaway that they can implement or apply. What do you wish more ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs or instructors understood or did to make peer review more meaningful and comfortable in class? So that experience of having ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs pair up or work in small groups to give each other that feedback, what would help?

Katie [00:34:56] Loaded question.

Rena [00:34:58] There is, there's lots of different things. You can't cover them all.

Katie [00:35:00] Yeah, no, 100%. My best peer review feedback experiences have been in my English classes where they're like, okay, pick two or three things. Can you look at this for me as I'm reading through it or like while you're reading through this because I'm not sure. So I think having a structure of what the individual wants to look at rather than having blanket rubrics in a peer review setting can be super beneficial and super helpful because with my experience on those lab reports, it's just a blanket. Are you following the structure of a lab report? And it's yes, but is this necessary? Really getting down to like those nitty gritty details of am I over explaining too much in my methods or does my discussion make sense? Can really help a writer versus just, yeah, you have a discussion.

Rena [00:35:43] And also it prevents the peer from feeling like they're the teacher. You're not going out the rubric. You don't need to grade this, right? You just need to answer questions about it. Talk about it with me, no pressure.

Katie [00:35:52] Yeah, no, 100%. It also helps the peer feel less pressured to critique, I think, because that's one of the things that I struggled with prior to working in a writing center space is critiquing my peers because I don't want to be the bad guy. I don't want to mean. So having that structure where I want your feedback on this can be really helpful.

Rena [00:36:08] And then you don't feel like you're giving the writer something that they don't want. They asked for it, right? Exactly. You wanted some feedback on this.

Charlotte [00:36:14] Yeah, I completely agree. I think the most important part of the peer review process is actually the writer reading and thinking about their own writing first before they even get to a peer reviewer at all. When I bring my writing to the writing center or when I'm preparing for a peer view, I'll go through and I'll like leave comments in my Google Doc, I'll highlight things and I will ask questions. I probably annoy them because I asked 10 more billion questions about my writing, but then I get the answers that I want because then, and it's easier on them because they just answer the questions that I have. And I think one other really cool technique that some of my professors have used is teaching ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to ask for consent if there's something that they want to give feedback on that maybe the writer didn't ask about. So the peer reviewer will just be like, hey, I have a thought about your thesis. Do you want to hear it? And the other person can be like no, I'm good. Or they can be yeah, sure, what's up? And I that's a really helpful language to have too that can teach a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ about writer agency without having to get to into the nitty gritty.

Rena [00:37:10] No, both of what you said just perfectly hit on that exact point, writer agency. If we take something away from this structuring peer review where the writer is able to take some time before they pair up to think through their writing, read through it, ask questions, and then set out a few expectations of what they'd like to talk about and then have control over what they get feedback on. So they're not just inundated with, oh, feedback on every possible thought that person has. But that they actually, it's a generative experience and it's an experience that they've agreed to. Writing is very affective, emotional, vulnerable, personal. And so I think that idea of like, I don't necessarily want feedback on every little thought you have, but here are some things that I outlined from the beginning that I want feedback on. And then here are things I'm willing to agree to consent to having feedback on if you have thoughts to share. I love that. Well, thank you so much. I think this was such a generative conversation to connect what it means to be a peer in this weird dynamic of peer feedback and giving feedback to what can start as a stranger, right, like someone you've never met before. And that can be in a classroom setting or in the writing center. And how to kind of build that experience into something meaningful for the writer and for the person giving feedback. You've learned a lot from that about your own writing, about yourselves, which I think is one of the many benefits to working in the writing center. So thank you for making the time to share with us today. And also thank you all for participating in all of our crazy workshops that we throw out to the writing Center consultants to help us with. We're so happy to have you as part of it. And the faculty just, we always joke that we can get faculty to come out to things if we get our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs there to talk to them. And they just love sharing and talking with you all. So as we wrap up today. Anything you'd like to plug or share.

Katie [00:38:51] I presented at the undergraduate research forum and I have a Google site out there with my research on it. So I don't know if it's public, but I have a link so.

Rena [00:39:00] We'll link to it if you'd like us to. We'd love to share your work, see what you guys have been doing. And again, you know, connect you with other people around campus as you always are doing.

Charlotte [00:39:09] I recently got published in the Rock Creek review. It's an undergraduate literary criticism journal.

Rena [00:39:16] So wonderful congratulations. Yeah, we'll link it in the bio if you'd like us to. A huge thank you to Katie and Charlotte for being so open and candid about their experiences as ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs giving and receiving feedback. As well as sharing all that they have learned in their consultant training and experiences working at the Howe Writing Center that have helped shape their role and approach as peer reviewers. One of the things that faculty said they appreciated most about the workshops that we spoke about today was getting to work directly with our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writing consultants. They found this ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ perspective incredibly helpful. Something you just can't get from a colleague or an admin. Our consultants have so much experience working with assignment prompts across campus. They help ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs figure out what's being asked of them and how to approach it. That makes them really good at spotting what's clear, what's confusing, and how things might land with ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. Faculty found those conversations really eye-opening and energizing, but you could just feel it in the room. So if you're at another center, we definitely recommend finding ways to connect faculty with our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writing center consultants. Whether that's on assignments, course policies, whatever aspects of writing that they wanna come in and talk about, it's such a smart and grounded way to improve how we teach and communicate. Hop on over to the Instagram account that we created for our podcast, at thisishowwedoitpod, and hit the follow button if you haven't already. Then look for the post about this episode to share with us your experiences participating in peer review as a writer and also what you think can help make this process most meaningful for writers. And as always, thank you listeners for tuning in to this episode. If you haven't already, like and subscribe to our podcast wherever you're listening from so that you'll know right away when we release our next episode. And don't forget, if there's topics or kinds of writing that you'd like to hear about in future podcast episodes, write to us at hwacatmiamioh.edu. Alrighty folks, and that is how we do it. Talk to you again soon. That's effective. I found the jumping spot. The light keeps going off on us, but we've got it back on. They want us to podcast in the dark.

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Episode 10 

Rena [00:00:01] Hello listeners, and welcome to This is How We Do It. I'm your host, Rena, a graduate assistant director of the Howe, writing across the curriculum program. And our last episode we started our deep dive into AI tools and their implications on design, writing and learning. We heard from Miami faculty Dennis Cheatham on his reflections for working with AI Tools as a writer and designer, and how course designs can incorporate use of AI tools through process focused learning. His perspective has been so valuable for thinking through ways to approach teaching and learning with these tools and how this will shape approaches to teaching and assessing the writing we assign. Now we'd like to think more about AI as a tool for giving feedback on writing. As we know, AI is not a human itself, so it cannot replicate or replace exactly what a human writer or reader can offer us in terms of responding to our writing. But what exactly are its strengths for giving feedback, and how does our human intelligence and approach to offering a readers response differ than chat gpts? To provide insight into that question. We asked three Howe Writing center consultants and Miami undergraduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to share their research on how their role as Writing center consultants who give feedback on ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writing compares to the feedback generated by AI tools like chat gpt. Joining us today is Ali Britton Heights, a business analytics graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ who studied diplomacy and Russian studies for her undergraduate at Miami. After finishing her degree, Ali will be working as a cybersecurity consultant in Chicago. We're also joined by Kylie Mullis, a senior triple majoring in English literature, professional writing and creative writing. In her free time, she is president of the Miami Intercollegiate Skating team. And finally, a familiar voice to our long time listeners, we have Meredith Perkins joining us again. Meredith is a senior at Double majoring in diplomacy and creative writing with minors in French and history. Outside of consulting, she's a freelance opinion writer for the Miami ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ and ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ journalist for the Miami Political Review. Meredith, Kylie and Ali have been consultants for the Howe Writing center for almost three years, and we're so excited to have them with us today to hear about what they've learned from their research. Well, thank you all for being here and welcome to the This is How We Do It podcast to Ally and Kylie. And welcome back to Meredith. We appreciate you all for making the time to talk with our listeners today about your research on AI, which is so interesting. I'm really excited to share it with all of our listeners. So we began each of our conversations by asking our guest, What is the last thing that you've written that you're excited about or proud of? So what comes to mind for each of you?

Kylie [00:02:26] I can start so because I recently added my creative writing major, I'm currently in a creative nonfiction class, and one of our assignments recently has been to write a braided essay, which is something that I've never actually done before. It was very interesting and super fun to take three seemingly non-related items of my life or memories from my life and kind of combine them all into one story and have one theme come out of it. It was really challenging, but it was super fun and my professors said that I should probably look into getting it published. So that was really awesome.

Rena [00:02:52] Fantastic. I hadn't heard of that genre before, but that sounds really cool. The braiding of three things. How about you, Ally?

Ally [00:02:59] Of course. So I'm fortunate to be able to do cybersecurity research and have been during my time at Miami. That's part of what inspired some of our joint writing, which has been great to see it in many facets of my life, but particularly in my cybersecurity research. We had an iteration of a paper of governance framework for implementations of cybersecurity that went to a conference in May, and I was fortunate enough to receive a lot of feedback on. In recent months I've worked with my advisor as well as faculty within my graduate program to identify next steps for that research. We're currently in the process of like reiterating it and getting more personal insights for hopefully further publication, which I really enjoyed the opportunity to talk to people about my research and get their feedback and then go forth and implement that in my paper.

Rena [00:03:45] Sounds like it's really gone through the full writing process of bringing in different perspectives, and now that would be so exciting to see it move to publication.

Ally [00:03:53] Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.

Rena [00:03:54] And last but not least, Meredith.

Meredith [00:03:56] Something I've been excited about writing recently is most of my time as out of class has been writing my grad school essays and I've been really excited about just getting some of those things checked off my to do list because it is a lot of work, as you probably know. So I feel really proud to have my first draft stone for like my statement of purpose and personal statement. And now it's time to probably bring those to the Writing center and have someone else look at it.

Rena [00:04:18] So yes, which the role as a bit and become the writer in that situation. Right. Well very nice. You're all working on such different things, whether it's creative or research or professional application development based. But it's so exciting to hear a bit about all of your writing journey. So thank you for sharing that with us. So we're going to start our conversation about AI today with thinking just about your experiences with AI tools as writers. What was your familiarity or experience with AI before beginning this research project and what drew you to be interested in it?

Kylie [00:04:51] I am probably the least experienced with AI out of the three of us. I think all of my background skating and then in the English department are just AI is not really a topic that's brought up often. I think it's very interesting to see, especially with this population of, well, how afraid they are of AI. If it is brought up in conversation, it's mostly like it's taking our jobs and not really understanding what's going on and how it can be used as a tool. So my professors haven't really talked about it in any of our classes except to be like absolutely no use of it. And in other aspects of my life, it was kind of just there. It existed. It was this unknown entity that no one wanted to speak about.

Rena [00:05:32] That similar or different for you? Both.

Meredith [00:05:33] So as someone who has a major in the English department and then a major in the poly sci department, half of my academic experience has been similar to how A.I. has been treated like in Kylie's classes. My professors don't want to talk about it. We talk about it the first day as something that we're absolutely not supposed to use, and then that's the end of the conversation. And so when we first saw Chatgpt coming out, I was interested and being like, okay, so what is this in the first place? So I made an account and I started honestly just using it for fun so I'd have it like generate poems just to see what it could do, see its limitations. And I think that once I started actually engaging with chatgpt, I got less scared of it because I was actually understanding what we were talking about and like, okay, this is definitely here to stay and it's going to improve. And so shauning it doesn't seem to me like the most helpful approach. And then as someone with a poly sci background, one of my immediate concerns was intellectual property and how this affects policy thinking of how A.I. is used, for example, with Turn it In, Every time I turn it and I say it goes through, turn it in. What happens to that from an intellectual property perspective? Who sees that data of what is in my paper? What does chatgpt, when I type in an input where does that go? So those are a lot of the questions that I was wondering and then seeing how different classes of mine were like, No, you can't use A.I.. But some are like, Yes, you can use Grammarly's AI feautures. Made me really think in an AI policy direction, specifically like on campuses, how they're handling it from an academic integrity perspective.

Ally [00:06:52] I think I probably have a unique perspective from some of the Writing center consultants and faculty that we have the opportunity to work with in that when chatgpt really started emerging, I was working on an AI non generative project, in one of my classes. They were talking about cybersecurity processes for AI and automated driving. We were looking at replacing CDLs with different types of like automation tools that were AI base. Having that understanding, looking at chatgpt, I saw a lot of opportunities. But I also understood that having a model like that that was available to the public left a lot of opportunities for misuse. So in line with Meredith, I immediately was like, okay, how are people going to use this? How could people misuse this? But I also had that kind of counter thought of what can other people do to prevent that? I think something we see a lot is with the development of new ideas, is them being implemented very quickly with lack of regulations or standard practices. I understood it as a tool and I was very curious to see what we as a writing center, what we as a university could potentially do to create guidelines. But I was also nervous of the idea of what some members in the English department have done, which is a dead stop of not allowing people to use it, because then you have a tool that exists that's still going to be used inherently given the nature of something that public but being used without being educated as to what it could potentially do.

Rena [00:08:15] What's interesting about all of your experiences is they're so varied across both your ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ life, your professional life and your personal life. How much you had interacted with the tool before and where your interests lie. But that kind of formed this perfect collaborative group where the research project where you were bringing different perspectives but also different experience levels with the tool to kind of have curiosities as users like your readers of your research, who are going to be learning about this tool from the ground up. You also brought up a lot of the different benefits of the tools, but also concerns. As you mentioned, Ali, it's already being used in many professions and industries, so it's not entirely new. And yet its capabilities have led to a lot of fear response, as you talked about, Kiley, with what this means for education and what this means for intellectual property. As you talked about, Meredith, there's a lot of concern as much as there's a lot of potential and your responses highlight the need for us to do more research to balance that understanding. So now that we've got some insight into what your previous experiences with AI were and where your interest kind of that brought you to this project, I'd love to take our listeners back to the beginning of your research project. So for a little context, this is a research project that began in your partnership group, which is part of the Howe Writing center programing for consultants each semester that they participate in a partnership group where they construct a research project together and actually go through the process of conducting that research, developing findings, and then bringing it back to the rest of the consultants to see how it can be implemented into your practices and how it will inform writing, consulting moving forward. So what was your journey for developing this specific research question around AI tools? How did you land on this question for comparing AI generated feedback with consultant feedback?

Meredith [00:09:57] What I remember is being at so ECWC is the East Central Writing Centers Association. And it was a regional conference that has different consultants and directors all meeting. And we were at Purdue University and being in these sessions there was the sense of panic that a lot of people wanted to talk about in voice, and we would end many of the roundtable discussions and panels we went to with people asking questions about AI, So what does this mean now? And I think it was chatgpt was very, very new. We had no policy. We had no academic integrity guidelines. It was before those were being published. And Ali and I definitely like when we were sitting at these conference roundtable talks and things like that, I remember over lunch being like, our job is really about to change and no one feels confident in what's going on right now. So what can we do to step up to be a part of taking this scary change into a positive direction? How can we help build the knowledge in our field at a time when many are experiencing techno stress and many are very understandably having feelings of anxiety about how rapidly our role is changing in the writing center? Because the only comparable thing, in my opinion, is when we added internet to the Writing center back in the 90s. That was a scary time. I wasn't there for it. But in the literature you can see the debate. And then we came together for a partnership research project. And how would you guys say that we landed on our question.

Kylie [00:11:12] I think we went through a lot of different iterations of the same kind of ideas. When we originally started with our partnership project, we definitely wanted to look at different policies across Ohio University. So we did a lot of research into that to see how people were handling the emergence of AI specifically in a university setting. But one of the other things that we actually spent a very large portion of our research on was trying to understand ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs perceptions of AI and finding out we had to get IRB certified. And because we simply didn't have the time, partnership projects typically are 6 or 8 weeks long, you don't have the time to get that certification and still publish this survey we had created. And so we kind of shifted our research into a different perspective. We ended up instead looking more about what we as Writing center consultants could do to help ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs better understand AI. And so we ended up going through all of these different questions of opinion. Is it more appropriate ever to use AI than humans? Which obviously was pretty hard to answer in a research project. We talked a lot about how can risks of privacy be discussed in writing centers, which is actually something I'm talking about in my current research project, my current partnership. But we ended up kind of settling as our not settling, but ending up on our final research question of how can consultant feedback differ from A.I. feedback? Because we discovered that a lot of ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs were using chatgpt in order to receive like help with grammar or help with word choice. Very little things that we as writing consultants do every single day in our jobs.

Ally [00:12:43] And I think honestly, that question still kind of tied in those main concerns that Meredith and I saw at our first ECWCA. People were asking if they were going to take our jobs. And even though we weren't able to get direct ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ thoughts on it, we were able to look at various outputs and really analyze if the tools were the same. But also people were afraid of Chatgpt and generative A.I. as a tool. So something unique we were able to do was kind of calm that fear and also provide context coming from political and technological backgrounds as to how it could be a tool and how we could employ it alongside the tools we already offered.

Meredith [00:13:21] And so for our study that we did, we did a small scale study. It was Kiley Ali and our other coworker Sophie, and we each submitted a different form of writing, both to a consultant for an asynchronous consultation and through a chatgpt with the same set of instructions. We didn't tell either party that we were submitting it to both. Like we kind of wanted to make it like a blind study. And so Kiley submitted an English essay. Ali submitted a speech, I submitted an internship cover letter. Sophie submitted a study abroad application. And what we wanted to prove here is, see, how does Chatgpt engage with these different genres? How could a consultant's knowledge of a university context show through in the difference between the two feedbacks? And we compiled our final comparisons. What chatgpt did that was similar to a human? What they did was different from human consultants into a final graphic that Kylie helped create.

Rena [00:14:13] And we'll will link it too.

Kylie [00:14:14] So in reference to chatgpt specifically, some of the strengths we discovered were that it gave a sample revised version, and this was in reference to Meredith as she submitted that cover letter. And it did rewrite the cover letter and provide her with the feedback directly in that sample revised version. It also gave some well laid out feedback with headers, separate sections. We do that as consultants. It's part of what we're trained to do, but was one of the things that we felt was really strong about the churchgpt feedback it was easy to read. There are also more opportunities for catered feedback. Just because you could regenerate a response, you could re prompt a chatgpt tribute to you. We specifically looked the online version, our asynchronous version of Writing center consultations. So because of this you aren't allowed to ask more questions of the consultant. You weren't allowed to re prompt us, for lack of a better word, because you submit your paper. With the things that you want us to help with, and then we get back to you in about 45 minutes to an hour. So we don't have a lot of opportunity to help you with more specific questions if we didn't answer originally. So that was one of the things that we thought was very positive about chatgpt. We did notice a bunch of weaknesses in it. One of them was that it was too redundant and repeated a lot of things that were already stated in our articles, in our submissions. So this was particularly in reference to mine. I had the English analytical essay and it talked a lot about like, you need a thesis. And I did have a thesis. It just wasn't able to recognize what my thesis was. It also didn't consider is that word count, as was also in reference to mine. So it had a 500 word count limit and it said that it needed to add a lot more information into my essay. I was kind of already around 490 words, so I didn't have a lot of wiggle room with that. There was more generalized feedback to the entire document. So instead of highlighting specific sections saying you need more evidence here, it just said in general you need more evidence and didn't highlight where as well as with word choice as a concern, it didn't quite understand some of the genre conventions. I think this was in reference to Ali, she tried to use a specific word and it said that she needed to use a different word instead. Which didn't quite fit with the theme of her speech. So for us as consultants, some of the strengths that we talked a lot about and that we really want to solidify or that we are able to answer questions of opinion based on our real world knowledge. Chatgpt was not. It can obviously mimic human responses. If you ask a question like, Is this good? It probably could say yes, but that wouldn't be a sincere response. It wouldn't mean anything where it's coming from a human, it's probably not the best question to ask us as consultants, but you could ask it and we could answer another. One of the things that we focused on was that we responded to all concerns that the writer listed in the client report form. Typically, chatgpt focused on 1 or 2 of the more prominent things that it thought you might want help with instead of focusing on all of the things and it might have even tied into something else that was just entirely not what the writer asked for. And then we had a better balance of compliments and suggestions. So as consultants, part of our 481, which is our training class, we're taught that to praise the writer as equally as you help them. So chatgpt had some compliments throughout. It was very good at mimicking a human response, saying you did a good job with this section. That sounded very well-written, things like that. But as consultants, every single step of the way, we're highlighting the writer's strengths, saying good things that they do just to reinforce. Obviously writing is hard. Writing is a process and this is something that they are good at. And then we were more personal, enthusiastic use, exclamation points, emojis, all the fun things that we can do. And we have knowledge of university context. As consultants, we see a lot of the same assignments come in over and over again to the Writing center English 111 is one of the examples. It's a basic rhetoric writing class here at Miami, and we see the same essay over and over and over again. So if we don't know that prompt by now, that's probably a little bit disappointing of us. But we're able to answer these writer's questions because we know that prompt, because we know what professors are looking for. We have that very good university context, which helps us a lot. Some of the weaknesses, obviously, like I said earlier, we can't regenerate responses as humans.

Rena [00:17:57] Especially that quick.

Kylie [00:17:58] Yes. Yeah. And then that's the other thing that we take about 45 minutes to an hour to respond to these concerns because, you know, we do have to read through everything and try our best to understand what these writers have submitted.

Rena [00:18:10] We're using critical thinking, not just stringing together language that seems like it would relate, but actually putting deep thought into how you're constructing the comments.

Kylie [00:18:19] Yeah, exactly. And there were some similarities, like I mentioned, like the bolded sections, things were very clearly laid out in both of them. Certain divisions overlap, like starting a speech with a strong hook. It's understood basic genre conventions that you need to really grip your audience at the beginning of that speech, you don't need to appear in person for either of them. These are both asynchronous things. So there were some similarities and some things that overlap and definitely positives and negatives to both.

Rena [00:18:43] When really interesting thing that comes from the findings of your research is that it demonstrates when thinking about writing specifically and what we know about writing genre conventions are a huge aspect of how we develop our writing. Structure of feedback is also very helpful and then us understanding how to make revisions right. And so those aspects that chatgpt can offer are very helpful and giving writers some characteristics of the genre they're working in and some feedback on some elements of said genre. But the thing you highlight that you all as consultants offer that it will never be able to mimic is an understanding of context. And in this case you're talking about university context or even a specific course context that you see over and over in the center. But as we know, writing is contextual, and every situation for writing things are different, whether it's related to the audience, the purpose, the class, the writer, who they are as a person, their voice. And so if what we know about writing is that it's contextual, it's based on a situation that is always slightly, you know, nuanced than the fact that it cannot attach itself to that context is actually really the thing that makes it unable to fully replicate what you can offer to ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs because you're able to not only understand the university contacts they're working with. But the writing context, the writing situation in a very specific way, which is very complex and a machine cannot understand all of the nuances of that context in the way that another writer, another human thinker, can. So I just love that that's what the findings help to demonstrate. And I think it really showed that you have this key part of your knowledge that it will never really be able to replicate. Your job will never be replaced. You all, you're still needed!

Meredith [00:20:27] And on that note, I think it's important to note that we did this study in fall of 2023. A.I. has come a long way since then, and I think if we replicated it, I actually don't know if we would find some of these same weaknesses ignored or writers instruction or gave redundant advice. AI is getting more skilled at responding to prompts. Humans ourselves are getting more skilled at prompt writing, and we might get to a place where and this is me thinking of an optimistic way to use A.I. where I don't, I'm not so sure that I could never get to know a university context if, say, we as a writing center developed our own air gapped GPT model that we could use for some of these classes that we see all the time, like a business 102, an introductory business writing class. English 111, If we made an error, chatGPT for privacy purposes, and then protected writers data where we created our own AI that had this knowledge of what is needed on the assignments in these classes as something that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs could submit questions into. And this is me thinking maybe 5 or 10 years down the line once writing centers have that technological capacity. But even if we do get to that point where we're using AI in the writing center and I do hope that we find a way to incorporate it into our practices because an essential skill that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs will need, is our consultants will be mediators of that new knowledge. Consultants are mediators of technology, whether that's us helping them or how to download a word doc. That's something that I do frequently, is teaching people how to share files, things like that, how to use Canva, and we help build that rapport even if we are using AI that also knows the context. We of course have that human connection with them. We help them develop new skills in independence. We know that university context. So I do have optimism that some of the flaws we saw in past experiments with AI. AI is getting better, but it's still important to understand there's limits to it.

Rena [00:22:05] Yeah, and it will continue to get better. And I think that's why the research must continue to learn from it and about it, learn with it, and we have to continue our conversations about it to understand its newfound capabilities, but also always recognizing its limitations and what we as humans and we as writers and we as thinkers do differently. Whether that's better or in a different way than what a tool or a machine can offer us. And another thing that you all found from your research and I think is really important and highlighting your role as consultants is that you empower writers, you give them confidence, as you said, you praise them, you show them what they're doing well. And yes, Chatgpt can provide a praise comment in a similar way, but it's not the same authentic experience as another human that is really engaging and responding to your work and helping to make you more confident in the things that are strong about the piece of writing that you're actually looking at and the things that they can negotiate, how you might continue to work and improve on.

Kylie [00:22:58] I think one of the really important things about being able to provide that kind of positive feedback to writers is that writing tends to be very personal, whether that's creative or academic. Whatever you're writing, you are putting a little bit of yourself into that work. And so having someone complement that feels very precious. It feels really good to have someone else reiterate the fact that your writing is not bad because in some ways it feels as though they're critiquing you as a person sometimes when they are critiquing your writing. So to have that constant reinforcement of like, No, this is good, this works really well, this is something you're doing very well in your writing. It really helps the writer to feel more confident, especially if they're not a confident writer in the first place. One of the things that a lot of people come to the writing center, they say, you know, I'm not a good writer, which is probably not true. There probably a lot of good aspects to their writing, to their writing process. They just don't understand because they don't see all the writing every single day. They think, you know, I only wrote this in like 45 minutes. Like, it's not very good. But it is. It is very good in certain aspects. Like there are things that can be improved always. But I think because writing is so personal and one of the things that we really excel at as consultants is being able to build writer's confidence up because writing is hard.

Ally [00:24:07] One of the principles that really stuck with me throughout this process is writing is hard and something we say a lot in the writing center, and it's something that when I struggled with my undergraduate thesis last semester really became clear to me how important it is to have not only that support, but also that contextual understanding. I set up recurring appointments with Meredith as well as finishing it as someone who shared that same undergraduate major with me would have this professor who had seen my writing before. And you really get that balance of rapport and support and understanding that I think is invaluable.

Meredith [00:24:37] And I would argue that building a writer's confidence and empowering writers is the most important thing I do. At the end of the day, I don't you know, I'm glad. I'm always happy when I have a writer make a recurring appointment with me, come back to the writing center and tell me. Meredith, I got a 100 on that. I got a 97 on that. I love celebrating those victories with them. But at the end of the day, for me, it's not about the singular assignment. I'm always really happy to be that person that can make them feel confident in their writing and have that positive interaction that keeps them wanting to write and changing any preconceived biases they have against writing. And I think that's what's so important to keep in mind as we're transitioning to a time of A.I. where consultants are wondering if we're still needed, wondering if we're still wanted, remembering how on that individual basis at the Writing center, we collect survey data and a lot of our responses always come back to the fact that meeting with a consultant had a positive impact on their educational journey in some way or another, whether that was improved confidence or learning a new skill or developing more independence in the writing, whichever direction our feedback took them. And I think that's important. Always keep in mind is that it benefits the ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs in the work that we do. It's ultimately about what our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs need on campus. And I think what ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs need right now, they're just as confused as we are about AI. Some of them are required to use AI in classes. And we, as the writing center, one of our values is that new and unfamiliar writing tasks can impact writers performance. And so looking ahead to the future, how can we step up as consultants and how can administrators support us as consultants, as writers on a large scale, or impacting a new task that is drastically impacting their performance?

Rena [00:26:01] And that's exactly what our center is here to support. And so for you all to be at the frontlines using your ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ perspective and knowledge to help other ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs is so important, so valued. And we just have a lot to learn from your experiences working with writers on a day to day, and I'm excited to see how that will continue to impact and inform your own practices as writing consultants, but also as writers and people who will go into professions where, as we've noted, A.I. tools will be part of what is expected in many situations. And that way we can continue to produce responsible and ethical users of these tools. So we've heard a lot about your findings in terms of how the consultant generated feedback compared to the A.I. generated feedback, how this but similar or different some of the benefits and drawbacks of those different perspectives of feedback. But one aspect of your research project was also doing some research to discover what policies exist around AI across different institutions in Ohio. Tell us a little bit about what you learned from that aspect of your research.

Meredith [00:27:00] So when we were looking at other universities in Ohio, we were just trying to figure out how were other institutions responding and how is that going to affect their writing centers. And we were looking at schools that had zero tolerance policies where at the highest level AI was not allowed in the classroom. And then most universities fell into a category where there was discretionary use. The overwhelming amount have and since our original study that seems to be academia's response is a discretionary policy, which means that if AI is authorized by the professor, it's okay if AI is unauthorized then it's not. It treats it like any other tool that someone might be using. If you're not allowed to use notes on your test, that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, you're not allowed to use A.I. on the test, you know, things like that. And with this discretionary policy, this creates a challenge for consultants where, okay, you're now having classes where someone is coming in and their professor says, Yes, you can use AI on your assignment. You just have to send screenshots of your chatgpt or whatever service you use. There's not really a understood way of how to site AI so that's a challenge as well. Consultants don't have much guidance on that. It's really what is the professor telling the ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ and on the consultant end, that's a lot for us to navigate. When we've had assignments generated by AI come in, I've had this happen multiple times and we don't have a framework for how to navigate that quite yet. And you can't come out and directly say, are you using AI? Because that's a question that feels very loaded. It feels very judgmental. And if I were to ask, I really don't even for me, I don't really mind if a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ is using it. I just want to make sure that it's permitted if they are. And a lot of the times what I've noticed in situations where ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs have come into the writing center with an AI generated writing assignment, it's because they just don't understand the assignment. It's something that they do when they feel desperate. And it's a starting point for me to figure out, okay, what did you not understand? Are you struggling with the prompt? Are you struggling with the formatting. Are you struggling with idea generation? We can use that as a point to create a new outline together, but nonetheless, Writing center is now to fully support the needs of our institutions. Need to have consultants that are trained to both help with AI generated writing, as well as helping ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs understand which contexts they are not allowed to use in. And that adds an additional burden onto the consultant. And right now there's just not that type of support at many writing centers.

Ally [00:29:08] I think more so on Meredith's point as integrating this as a tool and our responsibility to be able to utilize it as a tool, is that a tool is really only going to be used and is going to be effective if it's trusted. Kind of being the navigators of trust, really understanding it ourselves so that we're able to integrate it within the consultations that we're having. So we're able to have conversations about it when these ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs who may be desperate or may not understand chatgpt, recognize it as, okay, you're at this starting point. How do we navigate not to a place of using chatgpt or using other generative A.I. to create something, but how do we navigate it as a tool? Once we reflect on our policies and recognize what is allowed, we can open up a whole new world of brainstorming or moving past writer's block. There's a lot of opportunities. It's just, as Meredith noted, important for us to understand them, important for us to understand how to communicate them. And I think once trust and understanding enter the picture, you have a tool for growth as opposed to a device for cheating.

Rena [00:30:11] I think that often is what generates the fear response is just uncertainty of not understanding how it works and what it can do. So the more we can learn about it, the better we can understand. Because as your point about what you're seeing and the Writing center highlight both in writing centers and in classrooms right now, there's a wide range of how AI is being used. Sure, there's the times where ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs are using it to fully generate their papers. And then, as Meredith pointed out, it's a question of kind of why is this happening? Why what led you to make this decision? But then there's all kinds of uses of AI that may be permitted or may not be permitted. And that depends on the professor, the institution, the assignment, the context. And because that's vague right now, decisions haven't been fully formalized in many situations. You're at the front lines of having to help ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs navigate those decisions themselves and ask them the right questions to help determine that they are actually using it in permissible ways. And I think this is a great way to start a conversation across not only writing centers, but also with classroom teachers about what does it mean to create an air policy that allows for these beneficial uses, as you pointed to, Ali, while also preventing them from relying on this tool out of potentially needing other support or resources to help with their learning.

Ally [00:31:24] And I think back on what Meredith mentioned earlier, unlike generative A.I., we're not building writing pieces. If someone leaves, we hope they score well on whatever assignment they brought in. But that's not inherently the purpose. We're building writers, and I think in building writers and helping writers to grow and develop where it's our responsibility to teach them how to use the tools, even if those tools aren't generative AI. It's our role to teach them how to use the tools to write. And the writing of the pieces is ultimately where they may dive into the rules as opposed to no matter what will always be our role, which is building writers, supporting writers.

Rena [00:31:58] It goes back to that element of rapport building and how you're really a huge aspect of your job as writing center consultancies. Having a relationship with writers, which goes well beyond just the activity of giving feedback or reading over a paper. So we have also the big news to share that you will be getting this published into an article from this research, which congratulations, that's a huge accomplishment. So if you want to learn more about Meredith, Allie and Kylie's research, you can read about it in Praxis, which is one of the prominent journals in Writing center Research, which it will be published Praxis Fall 2024 issues. So keep an eye out for it and just tell us a little bit, if you wouldn't mind, about what the process for publishing has been like.

Meredith [00:32:38] So with our partnership project in our spring semester, we were given time to work together and write the article. And when we started, I don't really think we were even thinking in the direction of creating an article out of this. This sort of just evolves sporadically out of the research process. Upon suggestion from our Writing center director Lizzie, who was like, You should really think about writing this into an article. And with some of that guidance we took our research on AI policy and focused the article on a very consultant perspective of, okay, in an area of discretionary AI policy, what challenges does this pose to consultants and ultimately our call to action for this article, why we wanted to share our research with the larger scale is to put the pressure on writing centers nationwide. Frankly, to have those conversations about A.I. and not end it as a conversation on AI.  Something that often frustrates me personally is when we talk about AI and the conversation stops and says Well, let's make sure to use it ethically. What does ethically mean? What are examples of that? That's a that's a very unhelpful framework as a writing center consultant with learning how to navigate a consultation with AI. We need writing centers, helping ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs write scripts for how to do a consultation. If someone brings in unauthorized AI use, how do you navigate that awkward conversation? At the same time, we need to look at how we can we create a code of how to proceed with assignments where ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs come in with AI generated work that is permitted. What can a consultant do? I think that would be really helpful and we will see that. That is the future. We'll see it in more years as more research is done. And I'm excited for that because frankly, it'll help consultants be better at our jobs and serve our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs better. So read this article. We submit it to Praxis. They're very quick to apply to us and they gave us some really helpful suggestions. I think. I think it is somewhat inherent that a Writing center journal would be really good at giving you helpful writing feedback. And so we work together to revise and we resubmitted just at the beginning of the month. And so we're very excited to see our article. It's something that has been so personally rewarding, especially working with Kylie and Ali. You know, we started the Writing center training process together as freshmen and now being seniors and publishing in the journal that we were trained with, It feels really awesome and I love my fellow consultants so much. They do such great work at the Writing center and to be coauthors with them, it's awesome.

Kylie [00:34:45] And I think kind of jumping back to before we even decided to turn this into an article coming from ECWCA, the conference we presented at and then having that guidance from our director Lizzie, it was very interesting to combine what we learned from this conference and then from her suggestion to turn it into an article. So we did a roundtable at ECWCA, which is where we heard from a large portion of other consultants, the other Writing center and other directors, other administrators, just people in the Writing center space. And we learned a lot from them, had a good conversation about their opinions on AI, how they would proceed in a consultation if AI was brought up or if AI was used. We had three different case studies in our research, and so we seemed to find that in this conversation that people were just very interested in learning more about it, specifically people in the English sphere, just because it is not like I mentioned earlier, it's not talked about all that often. It's something that's kind of the elephant in the room that people turn their heads away from. And so we really wanted to delve more into this disparity between these AI policies because this is what impacts us the most as consultants is kind of what we determine from all of our research. This is where the gray area is. This is where people don't really understand and this is where we can really step up to help. So we just wanted to provide more information to a wider audience about how the Writing center can learn to work alongside A.I. instead of fearing it or sort of turning away from it.

Rena [00:36:06] And you've done just that. Not only are you sharing all of these findings in your soon to be published article, but you've also done various presentations for the Howe Center to help share what you've learned with all kinds of audiences, to help us think about how we're teaching, writing, how we're consulting, writing, and how we're writing with A.I. and now sharing it all with our listeners on this podcast. So we thank you so much for being willing to have this conversation. As we've been saying, I think I want to quote Meredith to say we don't necessarily need to be fully comfortable with using A.I., but we do need to be comfortable talking to each other about it and with our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. And so this podcast is a great example of why it's so important to just have ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs do research on it, talk to them about what they've learned and how this is going to impact our future in classrooms, writing centers and beyond.

Meredith [00:36:51] I think something I'd encourage all listeners to do is look at the AI policy at your own institution, whether you're listening as someone who's a writing center consultant, writing center director, a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, someone in your workplace, look at what that A.I. policy is and see what types of conversations are happening in your sphere and how you could step up to be a part of it. If you're feeling nervous about AI, I think it's important that those who aren't fully comfortable get involved because that's how we make sure that this evolution goes in an ethical direction. If you don't get involved in talking about A.I. and taking the lead on training people to use it, then who else will? And I think that having people who are informed on education, pedagogy and informed on writing pedagogy can really help in a lot of these conversations with people in data science, people in cybersecurity. I think working across the humanities and sciences or whatever sector you're listening to, maybe you're not an academic listening to this, I think paying attention is really important and keeping up with this rapid technological change. You don't fully have to understand AI, but just listening. And for me, the more I'm involved in researching, the more comfortable I feel.

Ally [00:37:48] I'm going to provide a brief blog. If you're someone who's interested in learning more about the general governance trends and AI as a whole, not just at universities. The article that I recently published with the Association for Information Systems is called Human Roles and Implementation and Oversight of Artificial Intelligence towards a Governance Framework that's in the Midwest Association of Information Systems 2024 edition.

Rena [00:38:12] Thank you for sharing that and we will actually link that in our episode description, as well as the graphic that you all created from your research findings, because I think that's just a really helpful way to kind of see the summary of comparison of similarities and differences between AI generated and consultant generated feedback. Well, thank you all.  Wow. A huge thank you to Allie, Kylie and Meredith for sharing their research findings and perspectives as writing center consultants from different disciplines. They they're doing such impressive and important work to ask and explore questions that can inform Writing center practices in the future. We appreciate the work you're doing so much, and thank you for sharing it with us today. In case you didn't catch this announcement in our previous episode, we've now taken our podcasts to social media, follow our Instagram at our newly launched account at This is how we do it. Pod will link our profile and the episode description as well. When you see the post for this episode, we'd love for you to comment and let us know what you think about the ideas from their research, what you found interesting or what questions that led you to think about related to AI giving feedback on writing or navigating AI in writing centers. And as always, thank you listeners for tuning in to this episode. If you haven't already, like and subscribe to our podcast wherever you're listening from so that you'll know right away when we release our next episode. And don't forget, if there's topics of kinds of writing that you'd like to hear about in the future podcast episodes. Write to us at each HWAC at Miami, OH. edu. We'd also like to shout out one of our listeners who did reach out. Thank you so much, Anthony from San Diego Mesa College, for writing to us about our podcasts. And I'm glad it's helping you think about teaching writing in your context. We really loved hearing from you and we hope to hear from more of our listeners in the future. All righty, folks. And that is how we do it. Talk to you again soon. Hopefully that brought all that together.

 Check out these resources at our website: /HCWE or write to us at hwac@miamioh.edu if you have questions or ideas for topics you’d like to hear about in future podcasts.

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Episode 9 

Rena [00:00:01] Hello listeners, and welcome to This is Howe We Do It. I'm your host, Rena, a graduate assistant director of the Howe Writing Across the Curriculum program. Since the rise of large language models like Chat-GPT and Google Gemini over the past few years, there has been a lot of conversation around AI tools and their implications for writing, learning and teaching. AI tools have been long embedded in the platforms that we use, from search engines to grammarly to text-to-speech translation. These tools aren't new, but since the increased capabilities of these tools like Chat-GPT, this has led to a lot of discussion and questions as well as uncertainty at our institution and many others. As we learn more about generative AI and the capabilities and consequences of using these tools. But we hope that our conversation today will highlight some of the uses of generative AI in both ideation and process, as well as some potential roles it can play in writing, designing, and teaching. Here to chat with us today is Dennis Cheatham, an Associate Professor of Communication Design in the Department of Art and a faculty Affiliate for the Emerging Technology in Business and Design department. Dennis has done a lot of work and research thinking about the role of generative AI in design as well as in teaching and learning. He has recently been teaching a course at Miami titled Creating With Generative AI: Shaping the Future, and helped Mandy and I co-lead a workshop on exploring, learning and innovating with AI for the Howe Center for Writing Excellence last month. It's been so interesting for me to learn about Dennis's work through the collaboration with him this semester, both in what he learned in exploring various AI tools as a designer, as well as how he goes about crafting assignments that integrate AI into ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs design processes. I'm so excited to share some of these insights with you today. ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ to the This is Howe We Do It podcast. Dennis, we appreciate you making the time to come here to talk with our listeners about your work with AI. So we began each podcast conversation by asking our guest just about the last thing that you've written that you're excited about or proud of. So what comes to mind for you?

 Dennis [00:02:05] Wow. So I have been working on this framework called Experience Design Factors for a good four years, questioning when we design for services or redesign experiences, what are really the parts we need to consider when we research and we design for those? So I have a website called xdfactors.com that has been operating this framework and done a ton of writing for that. That's challenged me that. Am I missing anything in that framework? And writing is wonderful that it challenges your thinking and forces you to really explain details that you might otherwise skip over.

Rena [00:02:43] And that's a great project that highlights the process over time, how it's a learning experience and how it can be challenging at times, but in a good way. But that sounds like a really exciting project. I'll have to check out the website and learn more about it. Thanks for sharing with us. So we want to start today by just talking about your experiences with AI tools as a writer and as a designer. What are some of the AI tools that you've found really helpful to use, and what do you find yourself using these AI tools for?

Dennis [00:03:11] Well, in visual design tools like Midjourney, are probably the ones I go to most. Though most of my work isn't generating content with AI that goes to production. I've been using generative AI tools way more for thinking tools and ways to work through concepts that then turn into what I'm writing or what I'm teaching, or just as a tool to bounce ideas off of. So that's where GPT, Gemini and Claude have been really helpful because I teach a course here, which we'll talk about in a moment. I try to explore a variety of tools to learn what they do. Though I have to say I keep going back to Chat-GPT mostly because I pay for it, but then also because over time it's been trained on my content and I've used it in a variety of ways. But as a thinking tool, these multimodal tools can be so useful for grappling with a concept, refining that concept, and then pointing me to new sources and really challenging me to go back to those primary sources that supplement that process with one of these tools.

Rena [00:04:20] The frame of thinking about these tools as thinking agents that we are kind of consulting with and bouncing ideas off of. And as you said, the more we converse with them, use them, the more they're able to provide specific results for us that are tailored to the things that we're looking for. I know they can even kind of pick up on our ways of talking and mirror those as they learn about us over time. So that's really interesting to hear that they have been that source for you, but in different ways. And I know Chat-GPT has become one of the more popular tools. But you mentioned kind of a couple of different ones. You mentioned Midjourney, which I know has been really interesting design capabilities. Would you share with listeners what are some of the things that Midjourney can do and that you've done with that tool?

Dennis [00:05:05] Well, Midjourney is a fantastic tool for generating very realistic imagery. Now out of the can, it makes stuff that tends to skew really blue and orange and very fantasy looking. So that's a bit annoying. But there are definitely settings in Midjourney you can use to push it more towards a raw or a more realistic image generator. One of the things I think that's powerful about Midjourney as an educator and as a creator is just like any of the text based tools, the words you put into it, the prompts that you give Midjourney will give you results that you're looking for. And in an image generator it means whoever is using this tool needs to be familiar with different styles, different camera angles, different types of shots that are much like directing a film or directing a photoshoot. So I think what's really interesting there, it really causes me to consider what look do I want and how do I express that with language like 35 millimeter film still or low angle shot? Other details like that I think make me a stronger designer. And I found that in my teaching, it really forced learners to consider what words they use to describe what kind of goal they are accomplishing with a visual image generator. I think that also turns into better work when they're creating their own original imagery. So it's a fascinating tool for creating expressive and amazing imagery, but it's also a great training tool for us as art directors and designers.

Rena [00:06:37] That's so interesting to hear. It's kind of dual role in that. I've seen some of the images that it's created and it's truly impressive and the quality that you can get to, especially the further you prompt it to get exactly where you want it to go. And I think the role of writing shows in that process a lot, as well as even thinking about prompting other tools like Chat-GPT, the revision, the refining, the specific choices of language that you have to make as you're working to get the tool to do what you want for you is in of itself a writing process and a way of thinking about how writing shapes, meaning, learning and output and what you are looking to get from the tool. I can see that either way, whether it's for image generation or looking to create text, you have to keep going back and forth with the tool in order to get to where you want it to go. And that requires language and rhetorical decision making and process and thinking that is so important for learning.

Dennis [00:07:30] And Rena, I think one thing that's really cool you're talking about here is it's conversational. That when we use one of these tools, I mean, heck, it's Chat-GPT Many of the interactions with a variety of these tools are about going back and forth. As writers, we go back and forth with our manuscript and we go back and forth in our minds about what word choice we have. We place that on the page or on the screen and then reevaluate. One of these tools is fascinating because it's like that page or that screen is talking with us about our own writing as it forms in front of us. And that conversation leads to better outcomes. You know, maybe in some way, what we learn by using these tools could underscore the importance of conversation between us as humans and how we make meaning and understand one another and what we can create together when we have great conversations.

Rena [00:08:20] Yeah, I think it demonstrates the co-creation of knowledge just through generating and exchanging ideas. And obviously in this case it's with a tool, a machine, but it is a reflection of how writing is social.  Learning is a social. Thinking requires exchange with others, whether that is a tool or a human, and that there's a lot of benefit that you can get from that conversational experience. So it helps. And they're always there in a way, right? Which is not always the case for having a human to bounce an idea off of. Having your own personal kind of consultant that you can go to and chat with.

Rena [00:08:54] So of course we recognize a lot of the benefits that these tools bring us and that they have a lot of capabilities that are helpful to offer us as designers, writers, learners. But we also know there's a lot of concerns and considerations to have in mind when using AI tools. What are some of the consequences perhaps, or things to keep in mind for designers and users when using these tools?

Dennis [00:09:16] Well, certainly in design we are talking about creating content that oftentimes is used by clients and used publicly. Any time we use one of these tools, it is building imagery or building content based on content that it got somewhere else--the content upon which it was trained. So one concern is what we create, may replicate or may somehow represent or feel like some other kind of content that's already out there. So that's always the copyright concern, especially as designers or copywriters, because a client is trusting us to provide content that is original and engaging and will oftentimes help them to communicate a message in a way no one else can. So if we're using a tool that is bringing content from somewhere else, it can undermine that originality and then also could cause some real concerns for clients when it comes to copyright and those other matters. Now, one other thing these tools can cause, and I see it in my course, is designers wanting to use the tool immediately to create and to save time because they create so efficiently. Using these tools can sometimes be: let me just get it done really fast. Let me just really save some time and crank it out when, as we discussed a little bit before, that back and forth and the time spent to refine that conversation and refine the content produces far better outcomes, whether it's thinking, writing, design, any kind of outcome. So generative AI could be a bit of a crutch and I think early use we're seeing that of like, wow, it can do it, let's crank it out. Instead of taking the time, knowing how to use the tool, and it requires, I guess like a screwdriver, many turns over and over and over again to tighten that screw the way we're shooting. Just one turn is probably not going to get a good fit that we're shooting for.

Rena [00:11:05] I really like that metaphor, and I think it demonstrates that if we treat it as a product tool and we expect it to create a perfect product on its first output, then we're not recognizing that that's not what the tool is actually able to do functionally. It's pulling from a lot of different information and we have to kind of direct it from where to go. And that process is where a lot of the magic happens. And I remember something you said when we were planning our workshop that has really just stuck with me and resonated with me that like any tool, in order to really understand its capabilities and what it can most offer us, we have to just use it an incredible amount, like spend hours engaging with it and that that's how we can really come to understand its uses and what we can do with it, what its possibilities are. But of course, you also acknowledge the potential consequences that come with using the tools. There's a lot of concern right now around intellectual property and copyright, and I can imagine in the design space how you just described that that's also a concern that they have. It really highlights the need for that human voice, that human intervention, even when using the tool, in order to then meet the client's needs to move toward the kind of message or design that they want for the user. Which also brings me to a question which in design, often you're designing for human users. So what is the implication of using a tool like this to design then for a user that is actually going to be a human?

Dennis [00:12:27] Well, when using any tool like a paint brush or Photoshop to use a few visual design and art tools, the person holding or using that tool is the one who's making the decisions. So first, the designer recognizing the tool cannot create for humans because it is not a human. It is a tool. Even though generative AI is great at predicting what words that go next or what parts of the image to put together. So when we're creating for humans, which is really our goal here with these tools, then the designer who's making the decisions is the one who's going to wield that tool most effectively. So I guess we could say it's the person in the chair who is using the tool that is the magic. And the tool is where creativity meets the page or meets the screen. 

Rena [00:13:13] Still highlighting the need for that human pair with the tool, the tool doesn't do anything by itself. It has to be prompted. It has to be started by the human.

Rena [00:13:22] So now let's switch gears to your experiences with teaching AI. And more specifically, you've been teaching an AI centered course titled "Creating with Generative AI: Shaping the Future." First, I'm just curious how the creation of this course was initiated. Was it your interest and suggestion to build a course centered around AI, or did the university or department request this kind of course?

Dennis [00:13:44] Well, I implemented AI into my courses before this course was created because in our fields it is a tool that's being used in industry by professionals and by hobbyists alike. So it is a real tool, just like Photoshop or some kind of word processor. Because that tool is so transformative in our industries and in practice, I saw an opportunity for a course but really didn't push that effort. My chair actually though brought it to me and said, You know what we're hearing about AI, I know you're teaching it. Would you ever want to teach a course in it? And I jumped at that. Heck, yes, I would love to. And this course is a 100 level introductory first year level course. Anyone can take it. But really bringing it that introductory level underscores how important and crucial it is for any kind of practice at Miami. And the course is what we call a Miami Plan course, it's what ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs here at Miami have a choice to take as a part of this core liberal arts curriculum. And what's exciting there is that means the course is full of ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs from every corner of the university. And I learned so much from that process and seeing how they use it in a variety of ways.

Rena [00:15:00] Yeah, that's really interesting to see how the institution has structured it as part of the opportunity for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs from any discipline to come in and learn about how AI is going to shape their industry and their work as writers, designers, learners. So when you were actually then designing this course, how did you go about it? I know you had integrated AI into other courses that you taught, so I'm interested if that kind of then translated into this course or was it kind of a whole fresh start to thinking about what it means to teach an entire course around AI?

Dennis [00:15:29] Well, one thing that was going to be core in this course is creation. It is a College of Creative Arts level course. So it is a course at the division. So it's not couched in art or in emerging tech or any other area like that. So no matter what, we were going to use the tools, practice with the tools and create with the tools. Like we talked about a little bit earlier, using the tool over and over again gives you some understanding of what it can do and what you can do with it. However, a course like this because it's the first one of its kind still needed to touch on intended and unintended consequences. Some of the ethics of our decisions and some of the real concerns when we think about what guardrails we might need to put up to reduce harm that could be done with these kinds of tools. Because the course has two parts: the creating with generative AI and then shaping the future. Shaping the future, this is part of the course introducing ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to concepts like wicked problems and causal layered analysis and intended and unintended consequences.  Ways as designers, we consider what future outcomes we want to create. So the course is, at its heart, when these ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs leave the course or graduate, they will be the people deciding what generative AI and what these tools will do in our societies. So it's probably a good idea for them to learn some ways of thinking that anticipate potential intended and unintended consequences that would be helpful for any practice, whether it's in health care as writers, publishing novels or in the sciences, and then also here in design.

Rena [00:17:05] I think that's especially important, recognizing that our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs will go out into their industries and professions and these tools will be available to them. Some of them will even be required to use them. And so rather than telling them that they're bad and we ban them, we actually have to engage in conversations with ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to help them understand what AI literacy is, how to be informed and ethical users, and how to, as you note from that framework, recognize the consequences and ways that we can avoid potential unintended consequences that may cause harm from using these tools. As we know, aside from just the intellectual property concerns and data privacy bias, there's also a lot of environmental effects of using AI tools. So recognizing all the layers of what comes with actually engaging with these tools to see that there are good things about them. But we also must be aware of how using them has an effect on not just our learning, our thinking, our design, but also our world. So to talk a little bit more about the course, I'd love to hear about some of your ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs experiences and insights. What did you find that your ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs were especially surprised or fascinated by when using AI?

Dennis [00:18:16] First, I'll start with one of my discoveries. I walked into this course expecting ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs were pretty familiar with writing prompts and creating with the tools, and I was so wrong. So I do a series of assignments that are focused on creating and those series of assignments we turn in every week and ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs create professional writing, fictional story, video code or sound, they can choose. LifeHack is one of those as well, so they have a variety of things that we're creating. The first assignment this semester of that kind was professional writing, where they could use the tools to write anything with a professional bent, write a resume, write a marketing plan, write a plan to get more people to come to your club, whatever that is, with some kind of intent that is professional. The outcomes that I reviewed once those were turned in, demonstrated that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs had a harder time writing prompts to get what they were shooting for. So the next assignment was story. And I demonstrated in class every step of that process. Let's use it to ideate. Here's how you can ideate with one of these tools to generate concepts. I think on the fly I wrote, What are ideas in science that are fantastic that could be the source of a great story? And it spit out all kinds of stuff. And then I selected a few of those and said, Give me more ideas in this realm. And we went through that process and ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs were following along. And then the next stage was research. Within the research phase, it's like, okay, tell me about multiple universes. What are the concepts in here? And explain to me some of the terms so I might understand it for writing my short story. So we went through that process over and over again. And then in Create it was create the story. And one thing that blew ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs minds there, and I made up a character name. I said, There's this character named Nascent Smither Stone or something. They speak Mandarin and English. They have a snow globe that tells them what universe they have jumped to, gave it some details like that, write an introduction of four paragraphs. And in that I also told it write some dialogue too. And what showed up on the screen, ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs were like, Whoa, I didn't know it could do this. And we went through this process. And what it started to create was a little bit of a Doctor Who kind of feel which I kind of love. And the test phase for the story assignment was now take this story that I've written this introduction and evaluate it as if you're a fan of Doctor Who. Would this align with you? And then showed that up. Then the next step saying, okay, how would this story appeal to someone who hates science fiction? And what are some suggestions you could give that I might make it more engaging for for that kind of reader? So on screen, I demonstrated every single step. I told ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, you can't turn this one in. All right. So, like, I'm demoing this. You can't turn this one. I should not see this on Tuesday. But the feedback I got from ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs after that process and a reflection that they wrote, I would say out of 55 ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, there had to have been at least 30 who said that day I finally understood what this could do. What was fascinating was the dialog. Some of it was in Mandarin. The details that you got, I never expected it could create. And that sparked some really exciting discoveries that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs shared that I expect on our next assignment will take their prompting in their work up to that next level by understanding that process of going back and forth and selecting ideas and really building on those within this kind of tool. So that was a really transformative discovery that I assumed they knew something and needed to demonstrate it quite specifically. But it produced an outcome that they understood far more clearly. They feel more confident. They got really excited about the work, and I think it could lead to some really exciting things coming.

Rena [00:22:04] There were so many things that you said there that I got excited to talk about. One, just the process of modeling, like how important that is, I mean, for teaching in general, but more specifically with using these tools so that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs don't treat them as we talked before, just as something to output an initial product and move on, but something that that you converse with, that you prompt, that you engage with and revise just like any other tool that you would use as a writer or a designer. So I think that modeling is so important to help them see the ways to use it in all of its capabilities. Another thing that you highlighted there is its ability to do all kinds of different genres. I mean, it can do professional writing, creative writing. So showing ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs how it can move between those different writing situations. Again, with the last thing I wanted to point out about what you said, reflection being such a key element of using these tools and learning something from them. With that reflection, they can really understand how it's shifting its conventions and practices and ideas across different genres and contexts, which helps them become more rhetorically aware as writers and and see what stages and parts of the writing process it can be especially helpful for. So I just think that's such a generative activity to do and I'm glad to see it really resonated with them and showed up in their reflections as that aha moment with the tools and what they can do. And I hope it does turn out true that it provides some interesting creative pieces in the upcoming assignment. I wanted to end with leaving our listeners with some advice. So thinking both, as creators, designers, writers, and also thinking about how these tools play a role in our classrooms, what advice do you have for those new to AI tools, those who are potentially implementing them into their own writing and design process, or even, a course?

Dennis [00:23:47] Well, one thing we covered in the workshop we worked on together was the idea that we have to change the way we teach with these tools. Because generative AI can create and can produce content, then evaluating the final outcome is not enough to be able to give feedback to learners on what they're learning and how they're developing as writers, as designers, scientists, whatever discipline we're in. So the thing that has really hit home to me is grading process or evaluating or giving feedback on process. Grading is, you know, the symptom. But truly it's like giving feedback on process, which means redesigning those assignments that the final outcome is great. And it's nice to have feedback on that one, but it is a symptom of good process. So when we teach process, that means learners will be more adaptable because process will go with them regardless of whatever industry they're in, regardless of how majors change and where careers might shift. One interesting detail about college that's oftentimes missed is the major you start may not be the same kind of field when you graduate in four years, and technological innovation has accelerated that in ways that we can't even anticipate what's going to happen in some sectors. So teaching process has been aha moment for me. It's something I've always done in design back when we were drawing and you know, we still draw some and doing that process on paper. But it is even more crucial when you have a tool that can produce the final outcome and you could skip over all those parts. So certainly for teaching is shifting our assessment where we focus on process. They tell you when you have a new pet, I am a dog owner. And so training dogs to be able to respond ways that you want them to respond, to be happy, not to eat your furniture, things like that. Training them to go fetch things requires training the human, not training the pet. It means we have to train our own mannerisms. We as humans have to train ourselves to behave, act and make decisions differently. So as these tools can do what they do, we as people have to be in some way trained or restrain ourselves or really be committed not to take the shortcuts or not to use the tool to exploit or not to use the tool or implement the tool in a way that it reduces access, whatever those might be. So I guess when we're given a tool that can do so many different things, it requires the person holding that tool to be even more careful and to be more aware. And then also to be more imaginative. So I do think this could be an exciting opportunity for people to better understand what it means to be human, because we're using a tool that emulates what human is.

Rena [00:26:44] And yet isn't. And so being able to understand what we bring that's unique and special and can't be replicated by that. Wow, that is a fascinating framework to think about. I think we speak a lot about how we're training the tool and that's thinking about the dog in this situation. But to think about how you have to take a step back and first you have to train your own habits and your own approaches to whether that's problem solving or writing or design. There are things that you have to learn to be able to, as we said, use the tool, but also that this is really a practice in us thinking about how our knowledge is working with different tools and other knowledge. I mean really that's the tool is pulling from all kinds of sources of knowledge, but that we still bring something distinctly unique. And our classrooms become spaces where we can engage in conversations and activities and assignments to help our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs become those engaged users in, as you said, to avoid those unintended consequences. And well, thank you so much for making the time to share with us your thoughts and experiences of AI tools and design and writing and teaching. Anything that you'd like to plug or share from your own work?

Dennis [00:27:53] Well, I have been working on a project I mentioned earlier about experience design factors. I have a website called Design Workbench.com (https://designworkbench.com/) And specifically there's a site called AI. Designworkbench.com (https://ai.designworkbench.com/) where I've been posting assignments, posting some of the thinking we're doing in the course and also resources. So check out designworkbench.com. I have a range of teaching and learning and experience design content there as well as AI and I firmly believe in sharing what I'm learning through that process as broadly as possible. So it's definitely an area where people can see what's going on there and can grapple with some of this content.

Rena [00:28:32] Thank you so much for sharing and making that accessible to everyone to learn from. I think like we were saying earlier, as much as you also need to spend time with the tools yourself, like just reading, learning about other people's experiences and uses with them can be really helpful. One last thing I'd like to end on, just something else that stood out to me from our workshop is, yes, I know we're thinking about how these tools can help and design and our thinking around teaching and learning and writing. But also I just want to recognize these tools can do such fun things too, as you mentioned, the creative writing. But I know we talked in our workshop about using it to make meal plans and helping us ideate around fantasy football team, I think was your other example. Are there any other unique uses that you found for it that maybe go out of our work in the classroom and our profession but are just as an everyday human?

Dennis [00:29:23] Gosh. So as a brainstorming tool, talking with one of these tools.., talking, right. I mean, again, it is a predictive tool that puts words after words that it thinks should go there. But chatting about, you know a curiosity. I mean I've used it where... Gosh, this morning like, okay, if I pay off my house or if I put money into a for 401K, what do you think is a better goal for my retirement? Now, I'm not going to treat it like a financial advisor, but it did introduce me to concepts I might need to dig in to with a professional. Or I might want to learn more from a primary source. I had a question once how long my daughter should leave her new earrings in before she could take them out to go swim. So that was one I didn't know about. And what goes into some of that stuff. I've ideated potential tattoo designs with it.

Rena [00:30:15] I love that.

Dennis [00:30:15] A lot of times as a thinking partner, I'm like, Hey, I'm interested in this idea, what are the components of this one? And I've used those for everything from the meal planning like I have lemon coconut and rice in my fridge and I need to use those up. What recipes can I make with these? To concepts like, okay, there are many faiths and belief systems that grapple with the concept of heaven and souls. Can you give me some high points on what different ideas are around this concept? And I've used it for that too, and kind of gone back and forth and asked like, is there anything I'm missing here in our conversation, or are there viewpoints that I might need to explore to have a more rounded understanding? So it's an interesting tool. These tools are fascinating because you can use them for the meal planning to grapple with an idea and asking, what are your sources? That is a tip I would give. You can ask these tools. What sources are you pulling from? And they'll give you some of those sources that you might dig into the primary source to better understand its basis and its training.

Rena [00:31:19] I think that's an important point that you touch on. It doesn't always cite its sources, and so sometimes you have to prompt it to give where it's getting that information from and then also further verify and check in to those sources. But as you mentioned, for anything you're asking it, it can give you new language, it can give you new directions, new ideas that then you can explore whether through the tool or other tools. So it really just takes an initial thought and allows you to just talk about it.

Rena [00:31:42] Wow. Such thoughtful insights from Dennis's work and our conversation today. A huge thank you to Dennis for making the time to chat with us today about his experiences and reflections on AI tools in the process of design and teaching, as well as for co-Leading our Howe workshop on Exploring, Learning and Innovating with AI in September. And thank you listeners, for tuning in to this episode. If you haven't already like and subscribe to our podcast wherever you're listening from so that you'll know right away when we release our next episode on *drumroll* . AI tools and giving feedback on writing, but this time from a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs perspective. And don't forget, if there's topics or kinds of writing that you'd like to hear about in future podcast episodes, write to us at hwac@miamioh.edu. We'd love to hear from you. And if you haven't already, please do follow our newly launched Instagram account @thisishowewedoitpod. Just don't forget to spell Howe h-o-w-e when you search for us. Alrighty folks and that is Howe we do it. Talk to you again soon.

Rena [00:32:48] And I think going back to your example about training dogs, interestingly enough, that is one of the things that I used it for. I just got a puppy and I was using it to figure out the positive reinforcement training methods that I could use. So I was training myself to train my dog by using Chat-GPT So meta.

We're back from a brief hiatus with a really exciting episode for you! In this episode, you'll hear from Liz Wardle about the sensemaking method that she has developed and evolved from our Howe Faculty Writing Fellows Program. We offer an introduction to the what, why, and how behind the sensemaking method for supporting teams of faculty looking to solve problems and make change in their institutions. We are then joined by Mark Sidebottom and Jennifer Kinney to share their perspective as faculty who have been both participants and facilitators in different programs informed by this method.

Resources Related to this Episode

• Faculty Writing Fellows Program
• "Howe Center Hosts Groundbreaking "Sensemaking for Student Success" Seminar funded by Lumina Foundation
• Sensemaking for Student Success: A Cohort-Based Faculty Change Method
•  (Howe Center for Writing Excellence Youtube Channel)

 Check out these resources at our website: /HCWE or write to us at hwac@miamioh.edu if you have questions or ideas for topics you’d like to hear about in future podcasts.

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In this episode, Rena talks with Assistant Director of the Howe Writing Across the Curriculum (WAC) Program, Dr. Mandy Olejnik, to discuss two different perspectives on graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writing—our experiences with being graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers and insights for supporting and advising graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers, drawing from Mandy's research and our HCWE programming on graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writing support. We reflect on some of the differences between writing as a graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ and an undergraduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, the affective elements of writing in graduate school, and the needed systems that advisors and faculty can help change and innovate to support graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs.

Check out these resources at our website: /HCWE or write to us at hwac@miamioh.edu if you have questions or ideas for topics you’d like to hear about in future podcasts.

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Rena [00:00:01] Hello listeners, and welcome to This is Howe We Do It. I'm your host, Rena, a Graduate Assistant Director of the Howe Writing Across the Curriculum Program. I'm here today with a guest who some of you may know as the Assistant Director of our Howe Writing Across the Curriculum program, Dr. Mandy Olejnik. Mandy has been at ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ of Ohio for quite a while now. She earned both her M.A. and Ph.D. in Composition and Rhetoric here and previously worked in the Howe Center as a Graduate Assistant Director-- the role that I'm in now--before transitioning to her full time administrative role as our assistant director. Mandy co-edited the collection Changing Conceptions, Changing Practices: Innovating Teaching across Disciplines. And you can also find her work in articles recently appearing in WAC Journal and Across the Disciplines. Much of her research centers on building equitable, systematic writing support structures for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs at all levels of education, especially the often overlooked graduate level, which happens to be the reason that we asked her here to be our guest today. In addition to being a graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writer herself, not too long ago, Mandy's dissertation--Writing across the Graduate Curriculum: Towards Systemic Change in Graduate Writing Support and Graduate Faculty Development--focused on the structural and systemic shortcomings in systems of graduate writing, studying the history and culture of graduate education to examine how faculty and ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs teach writing, or are taught to write, and identifying points in the system that can be improved. Her research has inspired several areas of programing that we now offer through the HCWE, including workshops and series that Mandy has led and I've had the pleasure of co-leading with her, such as advising graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers on high stakes writing genres that we did last semester, and a special series on using writing for learning in context for teaching graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. Our conversation today discusses both a writer's and administrative or faculty perspective on graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writing. We first talk about the experiences of being a graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writer before delving more into areas for teaching, supporting, and advising graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers. So, if you're a current graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writer or a faculty advisor or administrator who supports graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers, this podcast is for you. We hope you enjoy our chat about being and supporting graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers. Well, Mandy, welcome to the This is Howe We Do It podcast. I'm happy to finally have you in my studio with me. So as you likely know, we began each of our podcast conversations by asking our guests about the last thing that you've written that you're excited about or proud of. So of the many projects that you're working on right now, Mandy, what stands out in your mind?

Mandy [00:02:32] Thanks so much for having me. And I love this question for the chance to really reflect over what you've been writing. So one thing that some people might know about me is that I've actually been a long time fan fiction writer and reader. Literally going back to when I was five years old. I used to write and draw pictures of A Bug's Life, a Pixar movie. It was it was my favorite. And so this is something that I mainly did on my own time after school or during breaks. But it's been a really core part of my literacy journey, my personal identity. And recently I saw a CFP come out asking people to submit proposals on how writing and words have shaped their lives. And I'm really excited about the first draft of my proposal that I wrote about how much fan fiction and fandom means to me and has helped me become who I am and how the online community has accepted me in some ways that my in real life people haven't. So I'm just really excited by the chance to potentially write more formally about that side of my identity that I don't get to really do. And a lot of the research that you just talked about there in that intro.

Rena [00:03:27] Yeah, exactly. It's bridging like one of your more personal writing identities with that professional one. I know that's one of the first things I learned about you is that you're a fan fiction writer, but to be able to see you talk about how that has impacted you in, you know, a more academic journal will be really interesting.

Mandy [00:03:42] It will be fun.

Rena [00:03:43] Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing what's going on in your writing life and letting us celebrate this upcoming proposal with you. So I want to begin our conversation today by reflecting back on the experiences of being a graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writer, which was for you, let's see, was two years ago, three years ago...

Mandy [00:03:59] I graduated in May 2022.

Rena [00:04:02] So over two years ago at this point. Wow, time's flying. And I am currently, obviously, a graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writer, so let's just talk about what that experience is like. How do you think that being a graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writer differs from writing as an undergraduate?

Mandy [00:04:17] I just want to say that I think this is a really important question. I think that we should always be doing, reflecting on where we were, where we are now, how much we've grown, and also really trying to differentiate between those levels of writing, because that's just a really important thing. So the truth of it here is that it is really hard to be a graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writer, as you know yourself.

Rena [00:04:37] Yes.

Mandy [00:04:38] Other grad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, other faculty who have been to grad school know it's this weird time of your life where you're basically learning a new and very specific language with all of these disciplinary conventions and rules and expectations that you sometimes just find out by trying and failing at something. And for me, the difference between undergraduate and graduate writing was the stakes and the purpose. As an undergraduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, I was largely just writing papers for my professors who were probably happy that I understood rhetoric and theory and was excited about it. But it didn't really go anywhere beyond that. Whereas as a graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, I wasn't only writing for my professors to prove that I understood something. I was also writing to try and publish, maybe writing for like an academic conference that I was submitting something to, which meant that I had to follow these disciplinary rules and conventions more closely while simultaneously also learning them, thinking about what a conference even was, in which I think it made sometimes a different kind of more critical, constructive feedback necessary for me that I wouldn't have gotten as an undergrad. It's great you understand ethos. Logos, pathos, right. Just to simplify it there. I think at its core, writing is affective, right? We know this, and I think this feels especially acute at the graduate level where you just have so much going on academically, but also personally. So I, like many others, moved out of state for graduate school to begin with, and I had to make new friends and figure out how to live on my own for the first time and just start all of these different aspects of my life. And my Ph.D, like a lot of us potentially listening to this podcast, was interrupted by Covid. I literally had to flee the state of Ohio. Everything was shutting down. I went back to my mom in Michigan for a few weeks, it turned into like 15 months. So in that time, I finished my coursework. I was studying for and passed my comprehensive exam. I wrote my prospectus and I even wrote the first three chapters of my diss during that time. So, so much happened when I wasn't even here. Yet, I was here. It was just a weird time in my life. I really struggled with not having a sense of community on campus. I couldn't even access the library at some point. So they had to mail me books about halfway through the pandemic. I say that this really inherently matters and that there's an entire generation of us who have had our graduate studies interrupted in this way with lasting impacts. And graduate school was always hard, but it was just even harder given all of these things.

Rena [00:06:58] I think the identity of a graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writer during this time has really shifted. Like you said, when and at times we were more distanced from that community or even just the environment that we're used to. Being separated from, that kind of leads to a hard-- it even makes that an even more affective identity challenge.

Mandy [00:07:13] I think, too. You're starting your fourth year, right? You've been out of coursework now you don't meet up with your classmates as frequently as you did during coursework. You're on your own. You're writing your own thing. You might talk with your peers about it, but it isn't the same as like we all read the same book for class this week. What do we think? I just think that's also a shift that makes a graduate school a little bit different is you don't have the sort of central, defining task in front of you.

Rena [00:07:37] Absolutely.

Mandy [00:07:38] We're just not necessarily trained to do. You have to be an independent, especially for a Ph.D. program, you are being trained to be an independent researcher to do all these tasks.

Rena [00:07:45] Yeah, I think that's a great point that I'm realizing is one of the greater needs of graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers that that differs from undergraduates, which is it's a much more individual process because you're not like writing with a class. It requires you to really come into your own as a writer and think about who you are as a writer rather than just maybe serving an instructor's expectations.

Mandy [00:08:06] Absolutely. And I know we're going to talk about my diss in a little bit. And I think there's just different needs that you have as a graduate writer that not all faculty are A. Really told about or B. Prepared to do. And there is a lot to know about how to do it.

Rena [00:08:19] Yeah, absolutely. There's no class in it. I know we often say that you don't take a class as you're transferring to graduate school and what it means to be a graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ and more specifically, writing at this different level. So I want to move on to hear a little bit more about what led you to become interested in studying graduate writing support and how that became a main focus of your work?

Mandy [00:08:40] Yeah, so it's time to go all the way back to my master's program. Believe it or not, my master's thesis.

Rena [00:08:44] Which was still here at Miami, but far back

Mandy [00:08:46] It was. But my master's thesis was on like, civic engagement in undergraduate writing and rhetoric programs, which is super cool. But even during my master's, I had the seeds of this interest, right? So I had a really great class with Liz Wardle on threshold concepts of learning, and we also read some writing transfer research in the course. And I was struck by all of this rich and fruitful research out there and how ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs learn to write and how they struggle, what conditions need to be met, all these different areas. And that class really started my interest in how people learn to write. That's sort of the core guiding question cognitively, emotionally, pedagogically. Then this like the year after the first semester of my PhD, I had a class with J Palmieri called Rhetorics of Social Change, where I started studying, who writing studies research was focusing on and who wasn't. And it was there that I had this grand revelation, like during doing my readings and the journals that we have way more research and data in our field about undergraduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to write and not as much on graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. And as a graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ learning to write in these new disciplinary, specific, and higher-stakes ways, I had my own host of challenges and I was wanting to learn more about what we knew about graduate writing support and how to support that specific kind. So that was the basis of my interest. And over the next year and a half or so, I was reading as much as I could and was dedicated to supporting graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers myself through my work at the Howe. I interviewed and surveyed a bunch of Miami grad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs and grad faculty. I led some programing at the HWCE with the then Associate Director Ann Updike to help faculty help their graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. Right before my comp exam, however, I had another moment of important revelation, as you do from thinking and learning and basking and all of this. Right? Graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs are suffering in outdated systems of writing, like the comp exam that I was preparing for and hated. And it was just why are we all going through this that are unnecessarily hard for them and they receive little to no explicit writing support. But who actually has the power to fix that? And who also doesn't really get a lot of explicit support in learning how to mentor graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers? It was really then that I understood that this problem that I was investigating was part of this larger system with different people, different variations, different areas. That was a lightning-bulb moment that drastically changed the direction of my diss and my future research. I at that moment fully solved the problem, being more networked in the system. And I wanted to help ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs-- that still remained true, that still is true--But to help ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs in the longer term to help prevent some of these writing challenges and struggles that they were having around comprehensive exams or writing papers. It was important to work with the faculty who actually were a really important step to that in designing the programs and making it all work. And to my knowledge, there was not really a lot of research actually representing that. I think a couple of the books I've been reading for my comp were like, faculty intervention is important. We should have faculty development. They'd mentioned it, but not a lot of people actually follow through to see what would that look like. Kind of like to your first question here, what are the differences between undergrad and grad writing? Why should this be an important step? So it all started myself as a grad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, taking these classes, realizing that I'm learning a lot about one thing, but not seeing these others.

Rena [00:11:58] You had a personal investment in it. Learning it would benefit you as a writer, but also you realized it was a much bigger problem that then you could address.

Mandy [00:12:06] Through being a graduate assistant who worked with faculty and led programing, that was sort of my lane of interest. And I was seeing that this is an opportunity for me to be able to intervene and help people really long term solve these problems. And it was all during a pandemic, of course. So mix of zoom and in-person and online and all that.

Rena [00:12:23] But if anything, as you mentioned earlier, even more of a reason, you know, an exigence for why more support is needed for writers and more specifically graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers who are still making this kind of journey into their respective field. And but as you said, maybe from these distanced environments because of the pandemic. So you've alluded a lot to your dissertation research and how it kind of began from this interest and came out of your comp exam and the work that you were doing as a graduate assistant director in the Howe center. But tell us more about your dissertation research. What did you learn about the history of graduate education and writing in the US and what kind of data did you gather?

Mandy [00:13:03] So my dissertation for a little bit of context was broken up into three main parts, the different chapters. So one part was the history of graduate education and its writing structures and systems. Second part was an analysis of how graduate faculty were currently navigating their roles within that system supporting graduate writers. The third section was a case study of graduate faculty changing the system and ways that they support their graduate writers, including revising and reimagining structures that were not serving their ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs the best way they thought. And this to me was a really fun way to structure it because I had different kinds of data that I can collect. So for the first part, I did a lot of reading just about all the different history of the United States and its graduate education, going back and finding books, again from the library that I could barely access, but still trying to gather what was the story.

Rena [00:13:50] What was the first dissertation--I know that was something.

Mandy [00:13:52] Actually I can tell you about that. Right.

Rena [00:13:54] You shared with me.

Mandy [00:13:54]  I know. So what I learned from, from all of this first part of the dissertation and the history of U.S. graduate education and writing is that we really didn't have the best start, if you really think about it. So graduate programs sprung up in the United States largely in response to hordes of ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs going to Europe for their graduate study because undergraduate programs existed in the United States like Harvard and Yale. But there was no other place to go, and Europe had them. Arguably, they were better, you know, designed and programed for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs and they were going there. And the leaders of our institutions in this country said, wait a minute, they should stay here. Let's start offering them. I'm sure it was a lot more than that, of course, that the greater good. But that kind of felt like an exigence was like we're losing ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. We need to be able to offer them higher levels of education, make them different than the undergrad, make it go beyond, make it harder or things like that. And so fun fact, we did this because you asked about this. So the first dissertation in the United States was submitted to Yale University in 1861 by James Morris Whiton. It was six pages in length.

Rena [00:14:58] If only.

Mandy [00:14:59] Six pages. All you got to do, Rena. All written in iambic pentameter, which might be a big challenge. And it was titled "Life is Short or it is Long". So given our reactions here, right the genre of the dissertation has obviously changed a lot since then as has graduate education itself, where we no longer primarily have the white, wealthy, privileged male elite studying in the academy to become professors themselves. But instead we have a growing number of diverse ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs across contexts who face their own realities and challenges and are studying for different purposes. There's a lot of conversation going on right now how a lot of PhD ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs in the country don't actually always stay in academia. I know at Miami, the most recent number I heard was that only about 14% of doctoral ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs actually enter the academy as professors. So we just have a different context of what graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs are going on to do.

Rena [00:15:51] And what it is preparing them for.

Mandy [00:15:52] Yeah, and I think one of the biggest takeaways from my diss is, again, there was the history and I was studying faculty who were basically like I was never trained how to do this. This is hard. This is terrible. I'm going to change it for the better so that we can actually do better. So we have these these systems and these structures that were built in the late 1800s that we can change, we can make a better vision of what we want to do. The faculty at Miami in my study who were doing all of this, they were doing such a great job and they were really taking their role seriously and in terms of preparing graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs for their goals. And we as WAC administrators were able to help facilitate their growth and their progress. And yes, I'm not a gerontologist. I can't tell them what to do, but I can help advise and help them think through the purpose of their writing and their genres. Actually I have an article out in the WAC journal that discusses how WAC historically hasn't really focused on graduate education. But my case studies and experience illustrate how much potential it actually can make for you to say: Let's focus on this group of ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, this area, and let's build better structures. So we can do it. And how do we make these changes more mainstream is what I'm really excited about. So how do we intervene to create better structures and systems of graduate writing across the country? How do we stop and say it is possible--here's a heuristic, here's a model. Let's just make this better for our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs.

Rena [00:17:07] And that we are the ones that have the power and agency to do it. It's easy to just feel like, this is how it's always been. It's hard to make change. And why change something that has seemingly worked all this time, but has it really worked and is it serving us now? And so being willing to ask those questions and being willing to, you know, interrogate like what change might be possible and what might be useful, I think that's honestly the first step that a lot of programs need to take is just that willingness to question.

Mandy [00:17:35] That was actually a really big motivating factor. And the case study in the English department was that a composition and rhetoric faculty member in our faculty learning community was pulling their ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs and asking what parts of graduate writing was so hard for them? And they were all talking about the comp exam. This faculty member had the impression that we can't change the comp exam. It's what the grad school mandates. But actually the associate dean of the graduate school came in and said, we actually don't care what you have. You just need to have an exam. You can decide what it is. And that was they just sort of realized, oh, actually we can work to make this better. We inherited this, this terrible structure. We want to make it better. How do we do that? How could we do that? And I just think you're right. We need to be able to to know the power that we have in the agency that we actually have in creating this. And I think graduate education is more decentralized from the university. You don't have to go through University Senate to change your comp exam. Right? You just have to get your department on board, crowdsource together, figure out what you want it to be. Maybe your department has to approve, but that's sort of it. It's not as big of a accreditation issue as some undergraduate programs face.

Rena [00:18:40] And so I think that's a great example for those to know that you have to look into it. But sometimes it might not even be as tedious of a process as it would seem to be just from thinking about it. But yeah, being willing to take that first step and ask those questions because I think we're at a time where it's really important that we are asking questions about how we are preparing our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs and especially graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs who, as you mentioned, may not be going into academia, specifically how we're preparing them and how we can ensure that the writing, the learning that they do in the program is actually going to serve their next steps.

Rena [00:19:15] So it's really interesting to hear kind of your takeaways and how they relate to what writing program administration and specifically writing across the curriculum program like we work in and can do for graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs by supporting kind of the more systems and faculty that will work with them. So how have these takeaways informed your work at the Howe Center? Tell us more about the kind of programing that you've done.

Mandy [00:19:41] This work has informed a lot of what I've done, and I want to just again say for any grad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs listening, you learn so much and grow so much throughout your degree programs from the work that you do, work that you start maybe don't finish. It's kind of funny and fun to see how it evolves over time. So I think I've grown a lot from when I was a grad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ working on my diss, both in terms of stuff that I've been doing at the Howe and also some other research projects that I've been working on. So as I mentioned, my core interest and fascination has always been how people learn how to write and how we're teaching people to write, people being ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, being faculty, even being community members, right? So it's that thread that I see now with my most recent foray into AI and writing instruction. I know everybody is worried about AI. What's it going to do? How are we going to be? And so this started with me learning more about it as part of my role in faculty development here at the Howe when Chat GPT became more mainstream. We were offering workshops and opportunities for folks to learn more about it. As I progressed with my work in AI, I still feel tapped back into that same core sense of how do people learn how to write? And then so how do these tools influence and impact how people learn to write and make meaning of text? And so I'm still actively studying both graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ and graduate faculty undergoing changing writing structures and pedagogy. And I still have plenty more to say about it. But I'm also expanding, which I think is natural. I think your work, you will expand and grow and find new interests, right? My conceptual frame for my diss showed me that we are all actors and subjects moving through a system and that we are all connected to other nodes of the system. And that helps me better understand education and the academic world itself. And so in the workshops that I've been leading at the Howe I always try to have a sort of bigger picture frame. So we're talking about you as an instructor and your class working on your assignment, but you're part of a department, you're part of a program. Who else might be part of this conversation that you have to bring back to you? And again, I think even something as simple as like, you know, cultural historical activity theory that I studied in my diss has really informed my orientation in framing things to faculty in ways that I think even going with A.I. and other areas, it just always comes back to you and helps you see the bigger picture.

Rena [00:21:50] Yeah, those frames stay with, stay with you and they are always lenses through which you can see new things to make connections. Yeah, I think it's really interesting how it's continued to inform work that has maybe veered off into different directions. But then I know you've also--I've had the pleasure of doing so with you--led a lot of faculty support for advising or just kind of supporting graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers. When you just mentioned mapping, you know, the different systems and seeing your role in them. I immediately thought back to our workshop series on supporting or using writing for learning to support graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers, where we had all participants like map out the support system that they saw happening in their department specific to graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers. And it was really interesting to see what all of the different faculty across disciplines came up with and how they represented their different maps. But I think kind of the overarching maybe takeaway from our discussion with all of them was that maybe there wasn't always a clear system that they felt that they could map out and that their ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs would be able to understand.

Mandy [00:22:55] And so and I think, too, it's really important to think about how whenever we have had programs that focus more specifically on supporting graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers, the graduate faculty love it. They have so much to say, they're so thoughtful. A lot of them say like, this is the first time I've actually thought this carefully about it. I've just sort of walked in and I started teaching my ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs and advising my ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. But we would even have conversations of like, what does it mean to be a mentor? What does it mean to be on a person's diss committee? Just freewrite it for a little bit, think through it. What is your role? What is their role? What are your expectations? And I think that there's...that's one thing that I've learned from all the work that I've done at the Howe and in my diss is that we don't talk about supporting grads enough. It is really important. We have so much to say. Everyone gets so excited about it, but we just don't, it just doesn't naturally happen because I think we get busy. And for better or for worse, I think that a lot of graduate writing and education needs are a little bit second tier to undergraduate in the sense that there are more undergraduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs at most institutions in the country. They need support in different ways. They take more courses. The degree programs are longer than like some master's program. So I think it's easy to focus all of our energy on that. And then to come back to the grad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ sort of as something arises, maybe. But I think when you actually stop and center and say, How do we focus on this, I'm teaching a class next year and I'm going to be part of this five part series to learn how to better scaffold it. How to listen to my grad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. I know a lot of progress can come from that, and it's a direction that just benefits everybody involved.

Rena [00:24:24] Yeah, absolutely. And I know we often also have participants reflect on what they can remember about being graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers, which is always a very revealing experience. I know it's great that you and I can offer insight as I'm currently a graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writer, you were recently, so we have that insight to offer, but when we remind them of the challenges and needs that they had as writers during that time, it makes them kind of reflect and I think tap back in to that experience and what kind of support they could have used and help them recognize that maybe the systems of support weren't always there for them and that now they can play a role in helping to create them for their ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. So I always am just so inspired when we talk to the graduate faculty and what we feel that we can create, especially across disciplines. Because though it is, it is contextual at times based on the department or the discipline and how the roles play out, we learned so much about like what mentorship means and advising means by having conversations across those silos.

Rena [00:25:21] So I'd love to hear a little bit more about some of the programing that you've done through the Howe to support graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers. I know that there was, I believe, in FLC, a faculty learning community at one point?

Mandy [00:25:31] Yeah. So we've talked sort of throughout about like this different five part series that we've done, other kind of isolated workshops. One of the the main initiatives that we led was a year long faculty learning community with former associate director Ann Updike during the 2020-2021 school year. So it was during Covid, which, you know, online, but it was actually still a really generative event where we had a very passionate group of faculty from music, from psychology and English who met with us, you know, every few weeks throughout the entire year to learn more about what graduate writing looked like, how it was supported, how to examine their structures. And as I already mentioned on the podcast, that was the group where the English faculty member in composition and  rhetoric was able to radically help redesign and rethink the comprehensive exam process. That they actually did, and that is being piloted and you yourself have actually benefited from that.

Rena [00:26:23] And passed, thank goodness

Mandy [00:26:25] Congrats. And so it's just a really, I think, productive experience in having a faculty learning community. And I think it was the first one that we've sponsored as the Howe and we've had other ones since then, like around e-portfolios and things like that. So it was a a good time to test out what does it look like to have a long period of time with faculty that's not necessarily our faculty fellows program, but that's arranged around a certain topic of interest.

Rena [00:26:49] And then how can they take back what they've learned and make action from it, which that faculty member was able to do and actually, you know, pilot this new revised comp exam. And I know other project--and again, another opportunity to bring faculty across different departments and disciplines who have different levels of experience of working with graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers and just have this open discussion about what it means to support them in our different programs.

Mandy [00:27:11] I also wanted to say how rewarding it's been to work with you, Rena, on all these different graduate initiatives, especially the five part series. As you mentioned, we were able to offer a lot--You as a current graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, me as a as a recent one. But also since you were currently, you were going through your comps at the time I was on your committee. And so I think we had a really interesting dynamic of like Rena being here's what I think my committee members should be doing and me as a committee member going, nobody's actually told me anything. I'm just going on what I experienced. And also as a person who studies graduate writing, I have an idea of what I want to do to help add some personal inflection into our group, to really open up ideas and just be really real with each other. And I think the faculty in turn were like, I actually don't know about what I'm doing in this certain area. We're figuring it out together. I think it created a sense of trust amongst our community.

Rena [00:28:00] Yeah, I think it was a really like I appreciated that we were able to bring those different perspectives and I've learned so much from your research and the different programing that you've offered that I've either worked with you on or just learned from, because it's helped me not only think about myself as a graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writer, but also look for those systems of support that I'm within and kind of understand how they work together and how I can best make use of them, which again, you're not taught to do. As I mentioned earlier, you're not you don't take a class on being a graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writer. You also don't take a class on being an advisor or a committee member. So having, you know, an opportunity to talk through those questions. But also in that case, you were able to you know, we were talking about them together as you being a committee member for me. And I think that's like, you know, one of the major takeaways I had from our Using Writing for Learning for Graduate Student Writers series, which was just maybe talk to your ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, survey them, ask them what kinds of support that they need. Look, you know, ask if they would like peer support, more structured, you know, kind of figuring out what would best serve them sometimes is just opening a conversation with them. Which I think we did by leading that workshop and providing our perspectives.

Rena [00:29:15] All right. So I want to end with a final couple of questions to just learn from all of your research and knowledge on graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers to get some advice. So first, what advice or direction would you give to graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers who are in a difficult place or maybe doubting themselves or just struggling with kind of a new genre?

Mandy [00:29:34] For those graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, I would like to tell you that you're not alone. So writing in graduate school is so hard. I felt it too and Rena has felt it, is feeling it, right. I went through so many periods of not thinking that I was good enough during my graduate degree. I think we all go through that to a certain extent. And while I hate that that's the culture and where our mind goes, I do take some comfort in that we all felt it or feel it at different stages in our academic lives. And it's I hate to say that it's normal, but is a part of the learning process perhaps that you're not sure of your abilities and that you are recognizing that you're sort of oscillating between I thought I knew everything and now I'm entering this new stage of learning more information. It's okay to be overwhelmed by all the different knowledge that you don't yet know. Your feelings are so valid, but we're learning to write is hard for everyone and everyone can learn how to write. Writing is a process learned by practice feedback revision. We need readers to tell us what they think, that we know how to improve our writing. And that's what graduate school is actually for, right? It's to practice and to learn. I know the stakes can feel very high. They shouldn't be, but they are. Again, back in 1861, they're writing six pages. Now we're pushing 200 right, 300 even. And I... You know, even as you push yourself to do better in publish and do whatever, you're still learning, right? You're still trying to be better. Be kind to yourself. Remember that you're a learner, too. I mean, it's going to be okay. You should have... find network of people to support you, to be there, for you, to commiserate with you. That's, I think, a really important thing to take to heart.

Rena [00:31:06] I love that framing of just remembering that any time that you're finding a, you know, a challenge or difficulty, that it's just part of the learning process and that it's just natural and that it will lead, I think, to more learning by overcoming it. So being willing to just not doubt in yourself too much, know that we're all going through it.

Mandy [00:31:24] For graduate faculty, administrators and advisors, my biggest piece of advice boils down to listen to and learn from your ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. Their experiences are valid and important, and for a lot of us, it might have been a while since we've been a graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, you know, and being a graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ is not the same as it was 20 years ago or frankly, even five years ago. The pandemic has changed so much. The society itself keeps evolving, so we as post PhDs can sometimes get caught in a cycle of remembering what graduate school was like for us, maybe feeling tension of certain things being different or not lining up the same. Now as we're on the other side, our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs might not write in the ways that we expected them to or in the ways that we ourselves did. This can be intimidating, but it doesn't mean that, you know, any party is doing something wrong. Sometimes things have just changed. Society has changed. Again, our graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs are preparing for different kinds of degrees where being able to write a certain kind of academic essay might not actually be the most important thing for them to learn how to do. And it's our job to help prepare our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs in the ways that they need, not in the ways that we think that they should need or that we would prefer that they have. There is an art to letting go in graduate mentoring, that I think is really important. Letting go of our own conceptions and assumptions, letting go of the projects or the careers that we ourselves might want for our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. I'm not saying that we shouldn't hold our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to rigorous academic expectations or anything like that, but that affectively and emotionally we need to be there for them in the ways that they need, which might involve a little bit of us letting go of what we think that they need.

Rena [00:32:59] Wow, that's really thoughtful advice. Just kind of reminds me of like seeing the whole person behind the writing and the task and remembering that, you know, as you said, it's part of the learning process for them and just supporting their needs and what's going to help them kind of achieve the next step instead of maybe always like worrying too much about, as you mentioned, expectations or how things usually are. So I think that's really important. Well, thank you for making time to share all about your research. Everything that you've learned about graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers, being one yourself and supporting them, and for offering your insights on how to better support us. Me. Really appreciate it.

Mandy [00:33:40] Thank you so much for having me.

Rena [00:33:41] As a fellow graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, writer myself, a huge thank you to Mandy for shining light on this important population of writers that need specific support depending on their context, and also for offering encouragement and advice to those who are currently graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writers and can understand what it's like to go through this difficult process. And thank you, listeners, for tuning in to this episode. If you haven't already like and subscribe to our podcast wherever you're listening from, so that you'll know right away when we release our next episode. Don't forget--if there's topics or kinds of writing that you'd like to hear about in future podcast episodes, write to us at HWAC@miamioh.edu. We'd love to hear from you. Alright, folks. And that is Howe we do it. Talk to you again soon.

Mandy [00:34:22] Composition and Rhetoric Faculty member in our Faculty Learning Committee. Composition and Rhetoric Faculty Member in our Faculty Learning Committee.

Rena [00:34:33] So many similar words.

Mandy [00:34:35] I know. I love it.  A faculty member in our... now I'm forgetting the first part.

 

This episode features a conversation with former Graduate Assistant Director for the Howe Writing Across the Curriculum (WAC) Program Will Chesher as he reflects on his role and experiences as a graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ working in this administrative role. This discussion offers insight into the projects from the past few years that were especially memorable to Will and the impact doctoral ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs can make in this role.

Resources from Will's Projects at the HCWE

• Faculty Writing Fellows Program
• Miami Writing Institute
• Article announcing Peer Review FLC

Resources Shared by Will

Finally, if you're interested in reading more or applying to the English: Composition & Rhetoric graduate programs at ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ of Ohio and the opportunities offered to doctoral ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, you can learn more at this website.

Check out these resources at our website: /HCWE or write to us at hwac@miamioh.edu if you have questions or ideas for topics you’d like to hear about in future podcasts.

Hosted on Acast. See  for more information.

Episode 6 

Rena [00:00:02] Hello listeners, and welcome to This is Howe We do It. I'm your host, Rena, a Graduate Assistant Director of the Howe Writing Across the Curriculum Program. I'm here today with a guest whose voice you may recognize. Our guest today is Will Chesher, who joined me as a special guest host on our last podcast episode: Excited about ePortfolios. But Will is joining me for this week's episode for a completely different reason--a bittersweet one, in fact. Many faculty at Miami know Will as one of the Graduate Assistant Directors of the Howe Writing across the Curriculum program for the last three and a half years. Will is also a Ph.D. candidate in the English Composition and Rhetoric program here at Miami, beginning his fifth and final year in the program. Congrats, Will. My fourth-year self is so jealous. Will has worked as a G.A. at the Howe for most of his time in this program, but he is officially retiring from his G.A.-ship with the Howe beginning this August to focus on teaching his final semester at Miami and his dissertation, which he was awarded a fellowship for, I'll add.  All of that to say we aren't losing Will completely as he will still be around Miami next year, but we wanted to use this episode as an opportunity to conduct a sort of public exit survey for Will to reflect on his role and experiences as a G.A.or the Howe Writing across the Curriculum program. In our conversation, we focus more specifically on projects that were especially important to Will and offer insight into the impact that doctoral ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs can make in this administrative role. For those reasons, beyond those of you who may know Will, this podcast may be especially interesting to listeners who are interested in WPA opportunities as graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs like this one at ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ of Ohio, as well as projects that our WAC program at the Howe Center for Writing Excellence have done over the last few years and the impact that they've had in different ways. We hope you enjoy this special episode on Will's experience as a G.A. and hearing about the projects and takeaways that were impactful from his experiences working at the Howe. All right, Will, so you asked me this last episode and we can't break the tradition. Plus, let's be real. We're always writing something. So, Will, what's the last thing that you've written that you're excited about or proud of?

Will [00:02:16] Yeah. Quick, before I answer that--public exit interview, it is just like you're H.R. and you're like, so please tell us about...

Rena [00:02:23] Did you enjoy your time working here?

Will [00:02:26] But yeah, the last thing that I've written that I'm excited about, proud of. So I have two answers this question about things to write. I have an academic one and then I have a non academic one. So with the academic one I've been writing my dissertation and there's a lot of stuff that I'm just excited about. I keep telling myself and telling other people that if I'm not excited about my dissertation, why should anybody else be? And so there's just some cool things that will eventually be out in the world, and I'm excited to eventually get them off of just my computer screen into the hands of other people. So that will one day, one day. And then for the nonacademic thing. So I went to a wedding this past weekend with some of our chosen family in Oregon, and I was asked to write the Solstice blessing. And that was a really wonderful way to celebrate our people and as well as just be able to reflect on the seasons and thinking about even my dissertation and my time at Miami, I mean, the fact there are seasons and even though things change, there are still constants there. So you know, community and life and writing, there's always writing.

Rena [00:03:33] In and outside of academia, right? That reminded you that it's just even part of our personal life. We're always writing and reflecting on how writing is shaping our thinking.

Will [00:03:42] Yeah, absolutely.

Rena [00:03:44] Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing that and helping us celebrate your writing life with you. So as I explained in our introduction, today's episode will reflect on Will's experiences in the last three and a half years, working as a Graduate Assistant Director of the Howe Writing across the Curriculum program. So I know in our first trailer episode we talked a little bit about kind of work the Howe Center for Writing Excellence does, and it's two sides, one for writers and one for teachers. So just to clarify, Will is a Graduate Assistant Director on our Howe Writing across the Curriculum program side, which is our side for teacher support. So we help to work with faculty through different programing, whether that's our fellows program or faculty learning community, to think about how they're teaching writing in their disciplines. So Will, if you would, talk a little bit more about your specific role as a Graduate Assistant Director working for the Howe Writing across the Curriculum program.

Will [00:04:40] Yeah, it's kind of strange that it's been three and a half years. It feels both like I've been here for forever, but also that I haven't been here for that long.

Rena [00:04:47] Yeah.

Will [00:04:49]  In my role as an Assistant Director at the Howe Writing across the Curriculum program, I feel like I've donned a lot of different hats and... Which is something that I really appreciate. A little bit of context and background: I came to Miami from Ball State University in Muncie, Indiana, and then while I was at Ball State, my second year of my master's, I was the Assistant Director of Composition basically helping run the Comp Office. So I was doing WPA work, which is writing program administration work, in more of a first year writing setting, helping new teachers learn to teach first year composition and things. And when I got to Miami, I was interested in that role, but I also was interested in Writing across the Curriculum work because I'd never been exposed to it. I was writing Center Tutor at Ball State and I had worked in first year composition, but I was really unfamiliar with how a Writing across the Curriculum program runs and also what it could look like. And this was before even knowing about the Howe and the endowment and how this is a little bit of a special kind of set up that doesn't always look the same in different institutions. But I was curious about this notion of we all should be teaching writing because we all approach writing differently. And I remember when I was a high school English teacher before getting into grad school and there were lots of literacy initiatives where it's like math teachers should be teaching writing, where you can incorporate writing in science and you can incorporate writing in different courses and vo-tech programs. And a lot of that pushback from some of the teachers that I worked with--they're all wonderful people--but the pushback was like, Well, I'm not a writing teacher. And so even then there was this tension of: whose job is it to teach writing? And I think that that has followed me through my progression from teaching high school to getting into grad school and to now, reflecting back on my time in this Writing across the Curriculum program, because writing in biology looks very different from writing in sociology, and it looks different than writing physics and looks different than writing in mathematics and composition programs. And, so there's a lot of nuance and a lot of differences. And I mean, that's why we exist as a discipline and as a field of study with composition and rhetoric or writing studies, because it's not a monolith. It doesn't look the same. So all that context to say that there's been I think for me, this interest in how do we work with folks to teach writing that they value in their contexts, that really highlights the differences in expectations that are present in their discipline and how do we make that really clear and transparent to ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs? Because, when I was an undergrad, I wasn't taking all just one type of class. I was taking five different courses. And so I remember struggling at times in certain classes when it was that I would seemingly write the same for two different professors. And one professor would be like, okay, this is wrong. And I'd be like, Well, what's wrong about it? I don't understand. They didn't have a WAC program like we have here to ask those questions and interrogate how are we teaching writing? So, as a doctoral ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, I didn't fully know what to get into or what I was getting into whenever I started, I think in part because you don't know until you get into it, which is kind of a non-answer. But I know that at first when I was talking to some of the G.As who had the role and asking them  what they did, they listed like 20 things. They're like, well, we work with faculty, we do these workshops, we do these... And I was just like, oh my gosh, that's too many things.  I am a little child in a sense, that's going to be way too many things to do. But one of the things that they said is that you're never going to just be dropped in and expected to do something that you don't know how to do. And they were very clear that you will grow into this role. Eventually I applied and talked to Liz Wardle, the director, and I was like, I'm interested in this. And I think that there are some things that I would be able to learn from this, but also that I'd be able to bring to the table. And so that conversation was about what is a WAC program look like? I eventually came to find out that it really depends on the institution. It depends on resources, it depends on purpose and contexts. It's a rhetorical situation unto itself. And so learning how to ask questions and learning how to see what structures and systems exist was a part of that growth and development that I had.

Will [00:09:26] So I know this is a podcast and I just don't want to ramble on for too long, but I'm also like,keep talking. But if I'm thinking about my role as a doctoral ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ in this Assistant Director role, I've done a bunch of different things. And that includes co-leading workshops. That includes leading my own workshops. That includes running faculty learning communities with people, working on different projects and things that come up. I think one of the things that really drew me and draws me to writing program administration work is that it's never the same thing every day. And ironically, because I'm in a PhD program, I am a little bit more of a generalist and I like a lot of different things. And when you are in a WPA-type position, you get to flex that generalist skill and you're dealing with people, you're dealing with systems, you're dealing with scholarship and research, and you're just doing a bunch of different things. And it's never the same thing every day. I get kind of antsy if things are too rote. If there's too much routine. I like the spontaneity that happens sometimes. Or maybe serendipity is a better word. The serendipity that happens when someone mentions something in passing and it's like, oh well, have we thought about this? Have we thought about e-portfolios and teaching them in ways that talk about storytelling or have we talked about or thought about these things? So there's a lot of serendipity that happens when you are connecting with folks. Also just for me, I wanted to get to know faculty outside of my own bubbles. I think that, for better or worse, academics are pretty comfortable being siloed. We have our disciplines and even within our disciplines, we have our subdisciplines and we get comfortable talking to the people that we often talk to. And what I like about WAC work,  not to get too far ahead of myself, is the fact that you do make these connections with folks across Miami. And so even if I'm at Kroger and I see somebody that I've worked with in fellows, they're going to stop and say hi and we'll have a little chat. It's not about writing. It's just about how's it going? Do you see that tomatoes are on sale or whatever it is, that kind of connection.

Rena [00:11:38] It builds community.

Will [00:11:38] Yeah, that community connection that happens with also this shared mission of we are teachers. And we teach writing because writing is important for learning and for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. We want to teach it in a way that makes it accessible for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs and not just says jump through the hoops, but we won't tell you how. 

Rena [00:11:57] And that we all have valuable expertise to contribute together to help make that happen. In the best way, that it's not just one person's responsibility to help ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs improve their writing. It's a collective community effort. And so by forming that community intentionally, we can then better support our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs.

Will [00:12:14]  First year composition is not going to prepare you to be a writer in your biology capstone class. It's going to give you some tools that you're going to then be able to grow and develop on. The belief--I don't know.I don't want to speak to ill of folks--but the belief that you're going to pick up everything you need to know from one class is...

Rena [00:12:33] Not how learning work.

Will [00:12:34] Nope, not how learning works. You have to practice and you have to try different things and new situations. And you also have to be taught here's what's expected and here's what goes into this.

Rena [00:12:43] It's not how learning works and also in particular how writing works because of how contextual it really is.

Will [00:12:50] Yeah.

Rena [00:12:50] So yeah, absolutely. I think you hit on so many things that are wonderful about being a G.A. for the Howe: the connections that we get to make with faculty across disciplines and the community that we've built. And I think that community is part of what helps to fuel, I think, a culture of writing that I notice that is unique and special to Miami. There just seems to be this care and attention to celebrating writing and seeing the important role that it plays in our professional and personal lives. So how have you seen this culture of writing at Miami in action through your work at the Howe?

Will [00:13:31] Yeah, I think that it's easy to say that we have a culture of writing and just pay lip service. But I think I have seen here at Miami that there are people working to do this. This includes things at the Howe where we have both support for for writers on the Writing Center side. And that includes faculty down to undergrad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs but it is not like they only serve one specific population. And because we all need support in writing, just because you become a full professor doesn't mean okay I've learned at all. But also at the same time, with the programing that we have on the Writing Across the Curriculum side, both with the kinds of workshops as well as the series of workshops or even initiatives like FLC is a faculty learning communities or faculty fellows. There are a lot of opportunities for people to get involved, and it's never that we're going to teach you how to do this. It's instead, can you name your values and how do you teach them? And so I think a strength that I've seen about this whole notion of Miami as a place that celebrates the culture of writing, is that it's not monolithic, it's not uniform. It's not like you have to teach and everyone's going to read Strunk and White's Elements of Style, and we're all going to get on board with that. Instead, it's about, what values do you have? It's about trusting the expertise of the folks in those disciplines and relying on them and their expertise to be able to say, Here's what we value and here's how we teach it. And so, yes, the endowment and an endowed center, the Howe Center for Writing Excellence is a phenomenal way to do this. But there's also work taking place elsewhere, like in the Center for Teaching Excellence and some FLCs, faculty learning communities, that they've had there, as well as other opportunities for faculty to collaborate with each other outside of just their departments. And I think that that culture of connection and collaboration has helped with this culture of writing. Because writing is communication, and I cannot think of a job that doesn't use communication in some way. Maybe it exists, but I cannot think of it. And so therefore, when we're preparing ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs for their careers and their futures, we're thinking about how are you not only informed citizens, but also informed communicators making these rhetorical choices. This community of writing is more than just we write a lot, it's more about how do we teach it and how do we do this work and how do we support it.

Rena [00:16:09] Yeah, and how we value it and how we connect that to our other values for teaching and learning and how we want to prepare our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. I think those are all great points that I've noticed too, at Miami. And I would add that there's also this, writerly identity, I guess we could call it, just in that we have a lot of campaigns and messaging to highlight how every person in our community at Miami, whether that's a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ faculty, staff, are writers. They do writing every day and that we can learn from each other and as you said, make those connections, draw on each other's expertise. I know that actually is--not to make this about the podcast--but that is a lot of what inspired you and I to create this podcast was how can we create a platform that would then bring to light the voices, experiences, knowledge, expertise of those writers and teachers that are working at Miami right now so that others can learn from them in a very accessible way. So I think that is really what helps that culture of writing keep going on and on, is the way that we feed into the connections of seeing that it's a holistic effort of support. Yeah, I think that it's been something that's been special in both of our experiences, both as ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs and working at the Howe is that we've been able to witness that culture in action. So speaking of working at the Howe, let's get into a little bit more of the specifics. I know you talked about some of what your role is generally with the different things that you help out with from workshops to faculty learning communities. But now let's talk a bit more specifically about what are some of the projects that you've worked on that are especially memorable to you?

Will [00:17:50] Yeah, and it's good to qualify memorable because there is a lot. I don't want to get into  each and every...

Rena [00:18:00] A five hour podcast episode?

Will [00:18:02] Yeah. Let me just re give all of the workshops I've given in the past. So I think for me there are three big ones that stand out. And this is not to say that the rest of the work that I did hasn't been really impactful to me. Faculty fellows I think will always inform how I approach systems and institutions, and the way that we teach things. And Fellows is a phenomenal model and I'm extremely privileged to be able to have worked within them. But the three that stand out for me are the Miami Writing Institute, the Peer Review Faculty Learning Community, as well as the make Your Voice Heard three part series that I did in collaboration with Emma Boddy in... Fall? Yeah, it was this past fall. Oh my gosh. Yeah. So these three different initiatives. And we'll link to the Miami Writing Institute and some things, but so the Miami Writing Institute was very much a serendipitous, surprise moment. And I won't get into all the detail, those of us who worked on it have also written about it and published some things about it in our...

Rena [00:19:18] We'll link the articles as well.

Will [00:19:19]  And some things are still coming out. But basically it was this idea of how do we take our concepts about threshold concepts and take our understanding of these things and also think about writing pedagogy and think about online learning? And especially after the pandemic, how do we make this into an asynchronous module-based type of course? And it was at the request of somebody else to make it, and then we made it. But through that process, we were learning how to think about audiences that aren't just traditional ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs--this was focused on alumni and really kind of focused on audiences outside of higher education. So it's not: how do you learn how to write for your biology class? Instead, it was: think about the writing that you do in your own lives and how do you think rhetorically about these things.

Will [00:20:09] Through that experience, I learned more about score modules and how to embed different platforms and things onto a website. So it was a really interesting moment because I had no experience with these things beforehand. But I think what I was... While we were going through this process and learning how to put it into its own website versus putting it into Canvas as a pay-as-you-go module type of learning process.  We kept hitting these walls and it was not looking right. And so I did a lot of Googling and did a lot of learning and a lot of, in a sense, research, on how to figure out the best way to make this usable for people outside of the Canvas bubble at Miami. So the Miami Writing Institute was not only like a public-facing piece and project, but it was also an opportunity for me to learn how to do research on these different things that I'd never known to do before. And I may never use score modules in my future, in the future. And I may never do formal usability studies with platforms in the future. But at the same time, those skills and those opportunities were ways that I could learn about my learning and do that kind of reflective process of: okay, how did I go about solving this project and learning about coding and things. And so it was a really interesting and important moment where I was like, just because you don't know something, you can ask for help, you can learn how to do something. You can also do your own research and discover how to do this. But that was really important, both the learning how to make the thing, but also in thinking about who's the audience for this piece. And it actually connects with the Make Your Voice Heard series. And then I'll return to the peer review FLC.

Will [00:21:31] But the Make Your Voice Heard series was a three-part series that Emma and I put on in the Fall where we basically invited collaborators from Miami, but also from outside of Miami to talk to folks about how to teach or how to communicate using different tools and for different audiences. So our first workshop was on op-ed writing, and we had Meredith, who was a guest on the podcast, present as well as the editor at the time of the Miami Student come and talk about what is an op-ed as well as how do you write one--not only to the Miami Student, but thinking about this for teaching. And also how do you do this as someone with expertise, how do you communicate with folks? And the second workshop was about talking with local government officials. We had somebody from the Miami City Council come and talk as well as somebody else who is really involved with organizing and talking about: what are the different tools and ways and methods that you have for communicating and speaking with local governments as well as city councils and how do you approach those genres? Because they are very specific and you have a certain amount of time and they will not you go over. And so if you spend all of your time talking about who you are, you don't get your ask in. And then the third one was about teaching with social media. And so we had a couple of folks come and  share their perspectives on the use of social media and how do you communicate with people and use these tools? Because it's all about communicating with audiences outside of higher ed. And that eventually has come into my dissertation work, but it's about how do we connect with people outside of higher education in a way that allows us to communicate our expertise without coming in and being like, I'm an expert, listen to me. And it's like, why? Why should I trust what you have to say? This public facing kind of work and this public facing focus on how do we connect with people outside of higher ed has been, I think, a big interest of mine as well as thinking about what tools do we use in this media landscape and media ecology, and what can we do? Those were really important and we just got a lot of good feedback from folks about how that workshop series was really, not only applicable, but also people were thinking about how does this transform our teaching. And it was actually out of one of those conversations--because Jen Bulanda, who was also on the podcast, came to the op-ed workshop and was like, I want to teach that this, and I'm really interested in this. Maybe if there's an evergreen resource that you could have. So a lot of these, again, cross-pollinated conversations have led to the development of this podcast. The development of these resources. We don't just operate in our bubble and things are constantly... We're having conversations back and forth and I do really see it as bees pollinating all around. It's like you take this idea from this one workshop, but you're connected with this idea from another piece. People make this, not really an offhand comment, but just what if there is an evergreen resource? And you go: Yeah, what if there was? And it's that question of what's possible.

Will [00:25:23] And then the third piece is the Peer Review Faculty Learning Community that I applied for this past academic year. So 23-24. When I first started at the Howe, basically people were talking about the different projects and stuff that were going on. And one thing that I learned very quickly at the Howe is you have to speak up and say: Yes, I'll help you with this or I would like to do this. And Ann Updike, who was working at the time, who has since retired, was running a workshop on peer review platforms because she'd gotten some requests about  can we use these platforms? You know, are they good, are they applicable? Do they actually help with peer review? And a lot of these are online platforms that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs will use go through the peer review process, through the guidance of this platform. And people were curious about their impact and curious if they worked. And so I was like, Yeah, I can help you with that. I've taught peer review before. I'm interested in it. And I'm interested in platforms and always interested in how ed tech seems to promise you the world. But it's just  repurposing, repackaging what we already do. They just are better at selling it.

Rena [00:26:31] Not so great at marketing.

Will [00:26:32] No, we have a marketing issue. But so I got into that and I was I was really curious about what this would be. And so I did this workshop with Ann, and through that and doing some landscape surveys and understanding what is out there. And we found Kritik and Eli review and there were people who had expressed some interest in this. And through those conversations, it was like, well, maybe we can try a little pilot and s get some money for this. And so after that, I applied for a Miami tech grant. I applied, got some money to be able to offer these two platforms, Eli Review and Kritik to faculty at Miami for free. And through this process, it was also like we should interrogate whether or not these impact ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writing. Do they do what they said they're going to do? Or is it just outsourcing or whatever it may be? And so through that process of submitting for the grant, we also said we're going to do a faculty learning community where we're going to  research and understand how do we use peer response within our different programs, but as well as what is the impact of these platforms? And so for the past year, me and a team folks--and we're hopefully presenting at Lilly we will see and then also have an article eventually out about this--basically met and really asked the question: how are we using peer response in our classrooms and our programs and our departments. More importantly, how are we teaching ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to do this and what is this doing for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs? Through our research, we found that the platforms themselves are a hard ask whenever it comes to folks who are maybe reluctant to use peer response in their courses or peer review; the promise of a platform doesn't automatically change their mind. But at the same time, folks who already use peer review, they usually already have a system in place. And so therefore, paying for a new platform doesn't always help. I think it works differently... like if you're a large institution. I know University of California Santa Barbara uses Eli Review in their experience courses and they do some really great work there. But at Miami where some of the larger courses and we just weren't really able to get into that. But anyway, so without going too far off the rails, I think that within this faculty learning community, similar to a lot of my other experience at the Howe, at first I was really nervous because I'm a grad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ and I was like, okay, are these faculty going to trust that I can run this thing? There is always this little voice in my head that was saying: you're just a grad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ. But I have expertise. And so really leaning into that and learning to trust my expertise and to trust my gut and be able to say: I know some things. I know how to be able to teach these things. And so it was a really positive experience being a doctoral ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ here and really taking on this role. And it's never been like, oh my gosh, why should I listen to you? You're just a grad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ. Instead, it's, people being really appreciative and thanking us for our work and thanking us for our expertise and guidance. And then also people to commiserate with. They're just like, what year are you in? Okay. Fifth. You're writing, all right. Yeah, I remember that. You're getting a lot of that much needed sympathy. I remember, Rena, after you passed your comps, so many faculty were so excited. That's a cool thing to be able to make those connections and make it more personable and actually get to get to celebrate our milestones because people outside of higher ed may not necessarily know what comps are.

Rena [00:30:08] Yeah, I know. And you weren't alone. I was also anxious about that. And that's something that I have found that I didn't need to be anxious about, at least in this context here at the Howe that faculty are super receptive to our expertise and that we learn from each other and build community together around these different areas of teaching and learning. But I think what I really took away from you reflecting on the three projects that were very impactful to you, is just it once again highlighted the different hats, the different roles that we play in this particular role. So in the Peer Review FLC, you're working with faculty, but you're thinking about this audience of ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs and how this platform can be helpful to that process for them. But in these other two projects that you worked on, you're really thinking outside of the university to how are we engaging alumni or professionals and just those in our local community with writing and what we know about it. So I think that it just helps to evidence, you don't necessarily know what you're getting into at this job because new things come up out of new ideas. Like you said, it's sort of serendipitous in that way. I mean, hey, we never knew we'd be doing a podcast.

Will [00:31:17] This came out of it too.

Rena [00:31:19] Yeah, that was another serendipitous project that we ended up taking on and learning the tech behind and the genre and whatnot. So I think it just shows the variety of different opportunities and that's what being a writing program administrator is, right? It's taking on these different tasks and challenges and thinking of innovative ways to approach working with different audiences of faculty, ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, administrators, etc.. So it's been a great experience in that and it was cool to hear about some of the projects that were really impactful to you. And I think important to highlight, as you mentioned, that several of these projects really informed and inspired the dissertation work that you're now doing, which is thinking about how we can further talk about what we know about writing and our expertise to audiences outside of academia. So I can imagine you may have gotten to that project through a different experience, but I don't know.

Will [00:32:13] I don't know if I would have. Yeah. Even the connections that I made with some of the people that I've been interviewing were connections that I had originally made through the Howe. And they knew who I was because of my work at the Howe. And so I wasn't full on cold calling someone like, Hey, can I interview? They'd be like, Hey, Will! I was always like, Dear Dr. so and so...

Rena [00:32:38] So much networking involved.

Will [00:32:40] And also, I think one thing that I didn't verbalize in my answer is that I really do value collaborative work. I'm not drawn to the the solo genius who writes their magical words or whatever. That's not it. I think learning happens in community and writing happens in community. And so, all of the work that I have done here is collaborative work. Even if I'm leading something myself, it's still in collaboration, I'm still checking with folks. I'll check with you Rena and I'll be like, Hey, can you just take a look at this for me? And does it make sense? There very much was this sense of connection and collaboration within the team as well as within the program to be able to do this work. And even if someone is spearheading something, they're still checking in, asking about what's going on. That to me has always been really important because change takes a team. It's so much more enjoyable to me to build bridges than it is to be like, okay, come over to my island. I call it  building bridges compared to runways. Instead of flying somebody in to where I am, let's build bridges and make these connections and figure out where to go.

Rena [00:33:44] Absolutely. And I think collaboration, community, connections those are--they just happen to all be C-words--but they happened to be coming up a lot in the conversation because I do think that's another thing that this role emphasizes and fosters is that these collaborations and connections should not just happen in the silo of your particular discipline or department. We learn so much more when we can understand how these things work across institutions, across departments in programs that differ from ours, but have similar contexts that we have to work within. So I've learned so much at first I know one of my anxieties was how will I ever offer expertise to a team from, you art management and entrepreneurship when I don't have knowledge of that. But I've learned so much about that as well as they've taken expertise. Like you said, it's that give and take. It's that that bridge building.

Will [00:34:32] Yeah, it's important

Rena [00:34:34] Thank you so much Will for sharing some of the projects that have been memorable to you, some of the amazing work that you've done through the Howe, what you've learned from working with faculty across disciplines, both from their experiences and expertise, but also how we've better been able to understand what it means to teach writing at a university through community It's a collective effort. We wanted to end by having you reflect a little bit more on the impact that you feel having doctoral ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs doing administrative work this can have. So what is beneficial about Miami having our doctoral program and these assistantship opportunities for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs like us?

Will [00:35:14] First and foremost, I think that doctoral programs--someone said this to me once and I thought was really interesting--doctoral programs are where you learn how to be a colleague as opposed to just a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, because then when you go out and you're working, if you're working in higher education or you're working elsewhere, you are a colleague to people. And so therefore, within these roles of writing programing administration work--whether it's in a writing center or whether that's in a writing across the curriculum program, or working in first year writing--no matter what it is, you're learning how to be a colleague to both your other grad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ cohort members as well as faculty. But part of this is really thinking about how to take on that role of a colleague as opposed to just a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ. And I don't mean that in any negative way of  "just a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ," but there are differences in terms of a situatino where I'm coming to you with a problem, can you help me solve this? As opposed to I'm coming to you with a problem, let's solve this together. That notion of taking on the role of a colleague and taking on the role of a peer, even though you're still... technically I'm not a faculty member, but still having expertise to bring.  And still having ideas to bring to the table takes practice. And I also think that it takes experiences that unless you have them, are maybe difficult to enact. Learning how to come to a table and say, I've been noticing these problems, let's solve this together and let's talk about possible ways that we can address this. I also think that it's helpful for me and it's helpful for other doctoral ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to really understand how an institution works, to think about funding, reporting lines and assessment projects and how you are...who are you accountable to? And at the same time, like, who are you trying to...What is your mission and purpose and values? How do you enact those things? Learning how to do these, if I end up at any other institution that may not have an endowed program, still coming at it with the question of what are our values? What is our mission, what are our threshold concepts and how do we enact them and how do we enact them with each other, not just how do I tell you how to do this top down? It's really understanding how to do this communal, coalition building across departments, across programs with other people to create that change together. And that's been, I think, really impactful for me to think about: how do we want to create change in these institutions, but how do we do it with other people?

Rena [00:37:47] And how can someone, even at the level of a doctoral ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ participate in that? I think what's unique, too, is talking about building bridges. I think doctoral ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs have a particular positionality that almost serves as a bridge between the undergraduate experience or the ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ learning experience and thinking about things in a more faculty and administrative level. So we can almost offer that perspective as someone that's sort of in between and thinking about these things from both of those perspectives in order to as we're problem solving and ideating have that in mind.

Will [00:38:21] Yeah. And I think that it's also important because--I don't know, I don't want to overreach-- but as doctoral ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, we are researching all the time. And whether that's informally connecting with folks at conferences and learning about other grad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs work or that's coursework that we're doing. We're constantly learning. And I think a benefit of these programs, having doctoral ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs in them is that we bring new ideas. We bring new inspiration to things. It's like, we have every thought about this? Literally the podcast and these resources, this was a moment where it's like, why aren't we doing this? And I don't ever want to say oh it never would have happened without us. But at the same time,  folks bring in their interests and their perspectives. And if you're in a place that can support that and doesn't immediately say no, but instead goes, why? Why do you want to do this? How would you do this? What values does this serve? How does this serve our mission? That kind of opportunity of you can make it happen. We just got to be really intentional about why we're doing it. So I think there's a benefit to having grad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs and doctoral ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs in these roles. But also, as a doctoral ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, I've learned a lot in this role about how to be a colleague and how to approach new situations and new problems instead of just going into it being like, well, there's no hope. Instead, it's like, okay, let's take stock. What we have here, and what can we do about it? Which has been an asset.

Rena [00:39:52] No, I think that's great. I appreciate that reflection. Part of why I was interested in asking you this question is because programs that are being cut, there's a lot of graduate programs that are now being limited in their resources. And I think our field has always had these unique opportunities for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to not only teach courses, they're assistantships at their universities, but also now step into administrative roles. And this has been one of the most beneficial learning experiences for me. And I know you have shared in our conversations a lot of that too. So I think it's important for our audiences to hear how this has been a a give and take and that we've had a lot to offer. But then also we've been able to learn a lot from this that will help us in our next professional steps and why these kinds of hands on experiences are so key.

Will [00:40:43] Yeah, and I don't mean this glibly, but I think that my CV has doubled since starting here.

Rena [00:40:52] Can't help it. There's just always new ideas and things coming up. And obviously due to our resources here, we're able to take a lot of those ideas and run with them. But I think it's also, as you said, given us practice in creating resources and what does it mean to have an idea, problem solve, collaborate with one another and produce something that can help aid in that problem or lead to some sort of change, even if it's a small step.

Will [00:41:18] Yeah, absolutely.

Rena [00:41:20] Yeah. And I know we've been able in this particular role to think a lot about institutional change and as you said, learn a lot about the structures that we must work within. So it's been a learning experience at different levels, not only within the field but also in institutions at large.

Will [00:41:41] Yeah, absolutely. And also, I just want to plug the fact that you also get to work on a team with other grad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs . Rena, I say this sincerely you have been such a support.

Rena [00:41:55] Don't steal my ending. And I was going to say that.

Will [00:41:57] It's all right, I already got it. But yeah, to be able to collaborate with somebody who gets it and to be able to...

Rena [00:42:04] Learn from each other.

Will [00:42:05] To be able to say: hey, let's do this. Because you and I have some different skills, but we also have some similar interests. And so seeing where those things overlap and differ and build I think has been really instrumental.  And also is really exciting because I'll have an idea and you'll bounce back and we'll be able to build this thing and go build things together.

Rena [00:42:24] We built this thing together. This podcast that you're listening to was Will and I bouncing off each other and thinking about what our vision for this was, what our purpose for our audience, what content and what people would want to hear. So yeah, this is just one of the many projects that Will and I got to work on together as G.A.s for the Howe Writing Across the Curriculum Program. And we're glad that you listeners got to be a part of what I guess is our last project together. I'm a little sad. Don't make me cry. Well, thank you so much for making time today to share your thoughts with us about your entire time working at the Howe. I know it's a lot to reflect on, but you hit on so many important points. So anything as we wrap up today that you'd like to plug or share?

Will [00:43:07] Yeah, a couple of things. So one, I'm involved with this project called the Comp Rhet Money map. So it's "https://www.comprhetmoneymap.org" It's basically trying to understand grad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ compensation at the doctoral and master's level in composition and rhetoric. So check that out. If you are a grad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ listening to this, send it to your grad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ friends and have them fill it out because we're really just trying to make compensation transparent. I'm really trying to think about the work that we do as grad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. Also, this is a little Easter egg for people who are listening this far in to the episode, but the music that you hear at the beginning and the end is me.

Rena [00:43:49] Yes, thank you.

Will [00:43:49] Rook Music on Bandcamp (https://rookmusic.bandcamp.com/).  Just a little plug. That's all I've got.

Rena [00:43:54] Thanks for sharing. We appreciate it. We'll check it out. I mean, hey, after you listen to our jamming intro and outro, you got to. Will, thank you so much.

Rena [00:44:03] All right. Of course, we want to close by thanking Will for volunteering his thoughtful reflection in this podcast episode. But really, we want to thank Will for so much more. First, Will's work on the Miami Writing Institute and his learning of the technology to make it accessible. His leadership of the peer review FLC and earning of the tech grant to make that possible. His ideas and collaboration in many workshops, FLCs and semesters of Fellows and so much more. And thank you listeners, for tuning in to this episode. If you haven't already, like and subscribe to our podcast wherever you're listening from so that you'll know right away when we release our next episode on.... Graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writing. Don't forget, if there's topics of kinds of writing you'd like to hear about in future podcast episodes,  write to us at hwac@miamioh.edu. We'd love to hear from you. Finally, I'd also like to shout out Will, one last time for being the best behind the scenes executive producer of this podcast and more importantly, for lending his folksy and pretty catchy, if I do say so myself, music samples to be the intro and outro for our podcast. We encourage you to check out more of his music, but we'll end here with a larger sample than usual. Alrighty folks. And that is Howe We Do It. Talk to you again soon.

Will [00:45:22] What about now? Okay, it works. Great. I was like, What happened?

[00:45:25] That would have been... after all this waiting. 

Unidentified [00:45:30] The entire thing it's like oh no. Yeah.

In this episode, our behind the scenes executive producer Will Chesher steps in as a guest host to interview Miami graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, and your very own podcast host, Rena Perez as this week's guest to continue the conversation from last episode on ePortfolios. While our last episode featured faculty perspectives on teaching ePortfolios, Rena offers a writers’ experiences and insights into the types of ePortfolios you may create, where to start when creating an ePortfolio, and the processes of selection and reflection on your chosen content.

Resources on ePortfolios

• Across the Disciplines special issue: 
• Portfolio Keeping: A Guide for Students by Nedra Reynolds and Elizabeth Davis ()

Check out these resources at our website: /HCWE or write to us at hwac@miamioh.edu if you have questions or ideas for topics you’d like to hear about in future podcasts.

Hosted on Acast. See  for more information.

In this episode, we unpack the genre of ePortfolios and their value for teaching and learning with Miami instructors Beth Reed and Julie Szucs. Drawing from their experiences participating in Faculty Learning Communities on ePortfolios through the HCWE, we share ideas for implementing and scaffolding ePortfolio assignments and what ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs can do with these compositions at the university and beyond.

Resources on ePortfolios or Mentioned in the Episode

• Across the Disciplines special issue, 

Check out these resources at our website: /HCWE or write to us at hwac@miamioh.edu if you have questions or ideas for topics you’d like to hear about in future podcasts.

Hosted on Acast. See  for more information.

Hosted on Acast. See  for more information.

Episode 3

Speaker 1 [00:00:02] Hello listeners, and welcome to our third episode of This Is How We Do It. I'm your host, Rena, a graduate assistant director of the Howe Writing Across the Curriculum Program at ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ of Ohio. Our podcast episode today pairs with another episode we've recorded on OP Ed's where we talked to Miami ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ Meredith Perkins about her perspective as a writer of many OP Ed's on the writing and publishing process. If you haven't already listened to this episode, go check that one out before or after you listen to this one. In this episode, we learn from different disciplinary perspectives on teaching OP Ed's. Through talking to two faculty at Miami who are at different points in their process for designing and implementing this as an assignment in their courses. We are so fortunate to be joined today by Ann Whitesell, assistant Professor of political Science and Associate director of the Maynard Family Center for Democracy. She's also the winner of this year's Roger and Joyce Howe award for Excellence in Disciplinary Writing Instruction. But we've asked her here today because Ann has regularly taught EP eds as an assignment in her policy evaluation course. We're also joined today by Jennifer Blanda, an associate professor of sociology and gerontology and Scripps Research fellow. Jen attended our workshop in fall 2023, titled Writing for Publics on OP eds. Out of her interest for teaching op eds in her courses. She even actually gave us the idea for creating a resource that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs could use, which helped us to spur the development of this podcast. If you've been thinking about incorporating op ed writing into your classroom or looking for ways that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs could write about course content and new genres that reach public audiences, this episode is for you. We talk about the why and how behind OP adds as a meaningful genre for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to write in and the design and scaffolding process behind how this assignment can work. All right. Let's chat with Jen and Ann. All right. And welcome to the This is Howe We Do It podcast. Ann and Jen, we appreciate you making time on this Friday morning to be part of our conversation. So we begin each of our podcast conversations by asking our guests about the last thing they've written that they're excited about or proud of. Jen what comes to mind for you?

Jen [00:02:08] Wow. I think that's a hard question at this time in the semester because everything gets so busy that it's hard to make time for writing. And I think when you ask me, like, what I'm proud of, like, of course my mind offers goes to like what I'm writing academically. But right now I'm doing data analysis academically. So I'm not working on like the writing stage of an article. But you know, one thing that in the Howe Fellows program that was really important to me and thinking about what I write and what I maybe I'm proud of is you asked us at one point to spend a week basically writing down everything we write, and it was amazing. You know, I think about my writing in terms of academics and what I'm writing like in terms of a research article, but there's so much other writing that goes on. And so I guess if if I was going to be totally honest about what I've written lately, most recently and maybe feel proud of, it's probably a journal article review that I wrote for a journal a few weeks ago, and it was obviously an article written by maybe a new scholar, and the ideas were great, but maybe the delivery of the article wasn't so great. And so you're really trying to think as a reviewer, you have the option of just sort of saying some negative things quickly and moving on or really trying to give that scholar some feedback that's constructive and helpful. And so I spent maybe a little too much time on that. But, you know, the editor of the of the Journal wrote back and said, thank you so much for that constructive feedback. And so I guess that's something I've written recently that, you know, maybe I wouldn't have normally thought about. But in the context of the Howe workshop and all the other things that you write, that would be something.

Rena [00:03:46] Yeah, I know we often talk in that Howe Fellows program about writing being so capacious that it's just includes so many different things we don't think about. And I'm glad that you touched on that genre. I know you said you spent a little too much time, but I think it's important to recognize that it takes time sometimes when we're working, responding to someone else's work, being very careful about, you know, how that comes off and making sure our message to them is clear and and like you said, encouraging too, at the same time as giving insight and perspective. Ann what comes to mind for you at something that you're excited or proud of lately that you've written.

Ann [00:04:19] Sure. So I really like Jenn's answer. Well, because I recently was at a conference and I mean, what I was going to say was the paper I presented at the conference, I think my coauthor and I did a really good job of revising previous paper that we had and delivering it. But also as part of that conference, I was a discussant and so I also typed up feedback for the papers that I was discussing. And so I do think that a large part of like being part of an academic community, right, is providing people feedback on their writing and the ideas and the structure. And these papers that I was reviewing were by graduate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. So it's helpful for them to get your kind feedback right, because the joke is always that reviewer too, you know, so mean in academia. So yeah, I think that's a really great point. But also, you know, my own academic research, you know, any time that I can squeeze it in during the semester I think can be really hard. So I'm always proud of myself when I can make time to write. So that one was pretty, pretty proud of.

Rena [00:05:33] Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. Thank you for both sharing what's going on in your writing lives, both your academic work, your research and your writing, but also kind of the way that you're engaging with the field and other scholars in it. I think that's so important and I'm glad we could make that point in this podcast as we then talk about how to use our writing to engage with publics as well as others in our field, our colleagues, sort of for our discussion of op eds today, we want to speak to listeners who have possibly never written an op ed before or even thought about it as a genre that could be taught in their courses as an assignment, as well as offer some new ideas and perspectives for those who already have. Since you both have found an interest in OP Ed's, let's start by having you say more about why you think OP eds are an important and interesting genre, both in general and for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to learn and write in your courses.

Jen [00:06:22] Yeah, so I guess for me, I, I have offered it as an option in the past. And so um in my medical sociology course, we do grapple with health care policy a little bit. And their final project in the course is writing a paper about what they think about recent health care reform and what kind of reform efforts they would like to see in the future. So there's definitely this opinion piece of it, along with kind of factually presenting me an overview, and then I ask them to reflect and act, by writing to a legislator or writing a letter to an editor or writing an op ed. And the op ed, I think, is the one option that no ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ has yet chosen. And so as part of the Howe Faculty Fellows program in the fall, my group kind of came to this pivotal moment where we looked at all the writing assignments we assigned and who they were writing for, like what was the audience? And like over 90% of the audience was the professor or the other ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs in the class. And we realized in a sociology course, like, yes, of course we want them to be writing and they're writing a lot, but why are they always writing for us? Right? And when they leave, most of our sociology majors don't go into careers, as, you know, quote unquote, sociologists. And many of them aren't going to write, you know, formal literature reviews or research papers. But what we would like them to do is take that knowledge of society and social contexts and be able to enter multiple conversations that are so important societally with so many current events. And so, you know, as I think about like our majors and where they go after one of the most important skills I think they could have is to be able to enter those conversations and be able to write op eds about issues they care about and are informed about and are thinking about. And so, you know, we have this moment of, wait a second, we have to start writing to more audiences. And I think op eds are such a great opportunity for our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs.

Rena [00:08:16] Yeah, I thought it was really interesting that you mentioned that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs hadn't typically chosen that option. And I wonder if I know for me, at least as someone who has never written an op ed before, it's it can feel a little intimidating. And so kind of having that focus on what does it mean to engage with those public conversations. I think it's so important for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to learn for sure.

Jen [00:08:38] And I think some of them also just that's not. When you say op ed, I think I know what I'm talking about, but I don't know that they do write like I don't know that they know exactly what an op ed even is.

Ann [00:08:49] Yeah, I think that's a good point, though. I mean, I don't know how many of them open up a newspaper. Well, very few of them physically open up a newspaper. Right. But read the editorial page or the op ed. In my class this is a class about public policy. And so I start them by thinking about kind of what are public problems. And to me, it seems a natural way to use op eds is to then talk about public problems to the public. So we engage in a different type of writing a policy brief throughout the course of the semester. But the op ed is to kind of get their feet wet and thinking about policy. And I think for them it's a little, hopefully it's a little less intimidating because you're not trying to write like an expert yet you're just writing to the public. But what I actually find is that many of them, because they're not used to writing like that, they're used to writing to your professor or like as an academic, they, they are very hesitant or they they need some guidance because they've never done it before. So but it's a good experience for them because, you know, they're trying something new, but it's kind of building off of, you know, ideas that they already have and just putting it down into a succinct format.

Rena [00:10:10] Yeah, it definitely has a particular structure and kind of way of thinking about the genre. But I think you hit on an interesting point there and about how it differs from a lot of the writing that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs tend to do in academic spaces. So how are what are some of the ways that you see academic writing being different from op ed writing that kind of causes ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to have to stop and rethink about their approach?

Ann [00:10:33] I mean, I think for me, one thing that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs struggle with is. Kind of not assuming that people have background knowledge about whatever topic you're writing about it. So when they're writing to your professor or writing for like an expert audience, you can kind of assume that they know you know about public policy. But when you're writing for a general audience, you don't want to make those assumptions. And so we work on kind of stepping back and thinking about, you know, would someone, you know, again, just like opening up a newspaper know about this? Let's not make assumptions about their political science knowledge or their, you know, public policy knowledge. And that can be tricky for them, especially when they're in like upper level political science classes because they're coming in with the political science knowledge. The other thing that some of them struggle with is actually putting in their own opinion and kind of finding their own voice rather than kind of like sort of citing different sources and relying on other people's voices. And so the tendency to kind of like quote a lot of different sources when, you know, I want to hear your voice, write your opinion. So that's something that they can kind of fall into. And again, that's, you know, kind of a remnant of the academic writing.

Rena [00:12:05] Yeah, It's I think that's why it can be tricky and intimidating to make the choice to switch to an op ed when you're used to kind of taking on that academic turn where even though, of course you're not entirely objective, you're stepping back and letting the research do a lot of the talking for you. And now in this genre, you're being asked to really put your voice forward, your opinion forward and make that case. But also, I'm really glad that you hit on the need to kind of provide that background context. I think one of the most important parts of this genre is making what you're writing about accessible to more general audiences. So it's a way to communicate with publics about things that we might write about in academic spaces, but in genres that are actually accessible to them. So making sure to really start with that information that they would need to enter the conversation themselves as a reader.

Jen [00:12:52] And I feel like that's part of why I want to do this and assign this more than I have in the past. I feel like it's such a win win because that skill in and of itself is a win for them to be able to explain something, to not make those assumptions, to be able to talk to someone and walk them through it. But it's also a win for them in terms of just learning the the concepts and and understanding them deeply, Right? So when we talk about like that hierarchy of what you want ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to to learn at the base of that pyramid is kind of just remembering and recalling. And I think in classes we get at that a lot by just giving them a test, right? Like we cover material and then, you know, I can test you over key parts of health care policy, but you being able to take that and evaluate it and come to your own opinion and then explain that to someone else and advocate for that opinion is just a whole nother level of learning that's much deeper. And so I feel like it's a win win. It's a skill set, but it's also for their own learning. I think it hits a much better place than just a test us or just a quick essay to their professor.

Rena [00:13:56] Yeah, absolutely. It's more transferable skills that they can then apply to their professional contexts as writers and also just I think as communicators being able to take that information and, you know, communicate it to different target audiences. I think that's so important. Yeah. And I think something else that both of what you were saying had me thinking about is, you know, this is also a way for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to see themselves as writers because they're taking ownership of those tasks, of taking a set of information, writing it in their own words, putting their own voice into it, being able to kind of communicate with others, seeing a real audience behind it. I hope that that actually kind of works to help them see themselves as writers more, because I think oftentimes it's harder to do that with, you know, more academic genres or research focus papers. They kind of don't see themselves as in the paper as much in the writing.

Ann [00:14:50] Yeah. And one of the things that I try to get my ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to do, I think it's becoming more common to sign up as in political science. But one of the things that I try to encourage my ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to do is not necessarily need to take the perspective as a political scientist, but just who as you are as a person. So and talk about a public policy from your perspective. So I've had ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs write about, you know, mental health among college ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, but writing, as you know, it is a policy problem, but it's also something that affects them personally. I've had ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs write about, you know, like fast fashion and how that affects them, you know, as a college ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, you know, shopping on a budget. But also, you know, this is a. Policy problem. So, again, kind of finding their own voice, their own entry point into it rather than, you know, like pretending that you're like an expert, you know, or a researcher. Like, who are you? What do you have to say about this?

Rena [00:15:55] Yeah, I think that's a great practice too, and kind of just finding your identity as a writer and as a thinker and your own voice and how you're affected by these issues. Like you said, bringing in that knowledge from your disciplinary background, but then also bringing in your experiential knowledge from everything, everything else in your life that impacts your opinion and voice on the issue. And I feel like that, you know, kind of speaks to why why I think writing about topics that you're both, you know, interested in but also affected by and like see your place in is important for OP Ed's when you're thinking about, you know, topics that you assign ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to write  or that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs could write about in your course. What comes to mind for kind of directing them to a good topic?

Ann [00:16:41] So what I how I frame it is you want to write your op ed as you're trying to convince someone that a problem is a public problem, that we need to take action on. So it provides them enough direction where they know kind of the case that they need to make, but then they get to choose what the problem is, so they get to pick their own interest. But everyone's kind of working towards the same general argument, right, that we need to care about this issue. You just pick the issue. And that seems to provide them with enough guidance that it's not just like write about this, but they have the freedom again to pull in kind of their own personal interests.

Rena [00:17:29] Right? Yeah. And I think that starting with, you know, the problem and how it's impacting them and those around them and not just, you know, what is something that you're interested in, but what's something that you want to start a conversation about. And I feel like for you, Jen, in similar ways, you know, because I think a lot of times we also associate op eds with more like public policy, political science kind of courses. But there's also other things that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs could write about. So I know in thinking about your courses, I know you also kind of teach around policy. So I'm sure that's in part what ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs would write op ed's about. But are there other ways that you could imagine the content of your course being written in op ed forms?

Jen [00:18:08] Yeah, I would like to employ this as my introductory sociology course at some point. Like right now, ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs are writing a series of essays every couple of weeks, sometimes on the discussion forum, sometimes to me directly in which we're looking at different social issues and social problems along the way. And it's just sort of readymade content for an op ed where again, they're sharing it beyond just their their peers in the class and me and are finding, as Ann said, an issue they care about and would like to advocate for. Right. And so I think in that context, just social issues generally or social problems generally, it doesn't always have to just be specifically policy.

Rena [00:18:47] Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, for those who are interested in thinking about ways that op eds could be integrated in their course, thinking about what are kind of problems or issues that are coming up in your disciplinary context that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs could engage with and where are the spaces where people are having those conversations that aren't necessarily just limited to academic journals? Absolutely. Thank you for that insight. So I know that for you Ann you've had ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs write OP eds in your course already. But I'm also interested in kind of what experience that you all have with writing op eds or thinking about writing op eds yourselves and how that kind of influences why in your mind for teaching.

Jen [00:19:28] So I can start. I don't have I have not published an op ed. So this is a genre that I would like to do more writing into. And so even before I got interested in employing this in the classroom through the Howe series, I my professional organization, the Society for the Study of Social Problems, offered an op ed workshop where they brought someone in specifically because they were interested in the sociologists and folks from other disciplines that were in that society being more engaged with the general public and being able to talk outside of just academic conversations with academic audiences. And they provided us with some training on here's how you find an outlet, here's how you maybe contacted the editor of a newspaper, and here's how you would frame this and here's what we expect. But I'm early in the stage of of being able to do this myself. Which also makes it a little challenging for thinking through, you know, how do I help walk ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs through this, too?

Rena [00:20:26] Yeah, absolutely. I know I shared that. I haven't actually written an op ed either before, which is part of why I was like, I'm going to really learn a lot through this podcast and I hope I can take it and apply it to it myself because I'd love to. It's great to hear that your field is, you know, the associations are thinking about that as a new kind of way to promote how to get your writing out there and, you know, sharing our knowledge with outside audiences. So it's shows that it's part of the conversation.

Jen [00:20:52] For sure.

Rena [00:20:53] What about you Ann

Ann [00:20:54] Yeah, I've written a couple so political science kind of like sociology I think has been asking or looking for people to kind of write more public facing things. There are some political science kind of blogs that are geared more towards a general audience. And so I've written for those, and they're not specifically op ed, but they again kind of have a similar feel where you're writing for a general audience. And so I actually provide an example to my ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs as an op ed that I've written, given a similar topic to what my ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs write on to kind of ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs love having templates, right? So giving them an example of something that I've written, I've also written more things like geared towards elections as a political scientist, which is less policy focused and more like, you know, giving vibes on the election. So yeah, I've done a little bit of it. I think the I've also written for the conversation, which you know, is again, kind of less, less opinion, I would say, but more, you know, writing for a general audience. And the nice part about that is I've learned that has been very helpful for me in teaching op eds because I've had editors who have come in and edited my writing and said, like, you're making assumptions, right, about what people know or like these are big words that people don't know. And so that has helped me see, like through the eyes of an editor, what a general audience is looking for. And so I can then take that to my ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs and explain to them if this is what we're talking about when we're talking about using simple language and not using jargon. And I can, you know, explain my own experience in that, too. It's helpful to do it yourself. And even, you know, sometimes I think academics are very good at explaining to other academics things, but not very good at explaining to a general audience. So it's good practice for us to, just as it is for our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs.

Rena [00:23:12] Yeah, I agree. I think that it helps us to then understand what it's like to be in their shoes as writers and what that the different moments of the process are that they could potentially need support with. And I think your point about needing feedback, needing, you know, that kind of editor response to help see that perspective from this being such a specific genre that they're not familiar with. I think that's so helpful for you to bring your experience in. And I think, Jenn, for you, writing with your ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, it's something I've been considering. What if I assigned an op ed and then kind of challenged myself to write alongside them and experience that process with them and show them that, you know, we're new to this too. It's a genre that we can learn together.

Jen [00:23:55] I love that idea.

Rena [00:23:56] And I'm curious, too. Like our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs then asked to publish the OP Ed's that they write. Do you have any memorable experiences with ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs having success with that?

Ann [00:24:07] I give ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs the option. I tell them I give them actually a list of like local news outlets that, you know, except op eds. I strongly encourage them to send it to the Miami ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ because the Miami ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs are always looking for things, especially if it's specifically related to higher ed or Oxford or the Miami community. And I did have a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ publish her op ed. She went to the Howe Workshop and was in my class. And then she published her op ed in the Miami ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, and she was very proud of it and I'm very proud of it. And so again, I use that again as an example to ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. And I think it's a great way for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to again, share their voice. And then they have this thing that they've produced and, you know, they can put it on social media, right? Put it on your LinkedIn or, you know, share it with your parents. Right. And it's this visible thing that you've done. So I think it's a great experience for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. And again, depending on like where you send it, you know, the bar to entry can be pretty low, right? If you're not like sending it to the, you know, New York Times. Right. You can if you have a pretty good chance of getting it published somewhere.

Rena [00:25:29] Yeah, that was you actually answered my next question, which was going to be, you know, where to kind of encourage ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to reach out to. And I think that's really important. Just the on campus, you know, publications that are happening in the community, your local journal News kind of that approach I think makes it more accessible for them and them to see their voice get put into the community.

Ann [00:25:50] Yeah, and I have had ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, I don't remember if it actually got published, but I know he reached out. He was from the Toledo area, so he submitted it to the Toledo Blade. And so I encourage ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, you know, to look up your local newspaper because if, again, these papers love you for having content, especially if they can put online. And it's a great thing for them, especially for ties into a local issue. And yeah, you know, ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs should be proud of their work.

Rena [00:26:19] Right So it's possible the ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ perspective otherwise doesn't really get heard in these kind of outlets because I would imagine that because of the influx of social media, like the readership of, you know, many of these local newspaper journals are more, I would say, potentially target an older age audience. And so for them then to hear a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ's perspective on the different things happening in the community, it's an important voice to be included in the conversation. Yeah, for sure. So I think for my last question I would just ask. As we're thinking about, you know, how we can integrate op eds into more course contexts across disciplinary contexts to see how ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs voices can be heard on different issues that are happening in their communities. I'm curious what you would recommend for instructors who are maybe thinking about integrating this in their course for the first time? What would be a first step to get them started on imagining what this could look like?

Jen [00:27:22] So I think for me, as someone who hasn't done this completely yet, the workshop that I went to at the howe center was so helpful. And specifically in that workshop, you had an undergrad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ who has published a number of OP Ed's come and talk. And for me as a faculty member, that demystified it a lot. And her discussion of that made it feel a lot more doable. She was great at walking everyone through the process, like how she started, how she queried editors, how she interacted with them, the kind of feedback she got from the community and how she sometimes had to kind of shake that off. The whole thing was just really great and it still sticks with me. And I think I thought about inviting her to class this semester. She said she would be willing to come to class. And so I think for other instructors, if they're at another institution and they can identify maybe a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ who has already done this, that and has published it, especially because I think that makes it feel doable and achievable and exciting. Like it was exciting listening to her talk about that for other ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to see like, Wow, I could do that too. And wow, I would like to have that published. I mean, like Ann said, like it's a thing then right, Like you've published your thoughts and engaged in this public conversation around them. And it just that was really, really helpful.

Rena [00:28:38] Yeah. I think looking to professional development opportunities, but also just colleagues, ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, others in the community who have done this and can talk you through the process, I think that's a great first step. Look to your network.

Jen [00:28:52] And then the other thing I would say, as someone who hasn't done this yet and is thinking about it, and I know we've already been in conversation about this, but if there was some kind of like evergreen resource, like if you could identify some people like the editor of a paper or even a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ newspaper who can talk through like, what are you looking for? And some resources that are really good that then I could just incorporate semester after semester as, you know, some good solid resources for my ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. That's I think would be really helpful in that process of knowing that they have enough resources, that I have enough resources to kind of guide them on that path.

Rena [00:29:25] Yeah. And as you said, resources help to demystify the process. They can actually see the different steps, how to go about them and hear from those people they'll be interacting with and know that it's not as scary as it may seem.

Ann [00:29:38] Yeah, I think I mean, for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, definitely demystifying it is really important. So giving them examples of what you're expecting and knowing that, you know, if you give them an example of something that's been published, again, like in The New York Times or the Wall Street Journal, obviously it's not going to look the same, right? So one of the things that I did this semester was I had I put in, I put into chatgpt and I asked chatgpt to write an op ed, and I put in a couple of different prompts. And then I, I edited it slightly to take out some things that op ed should have. So I had it write a prompt where it like uses statistics and then I had it write a prompt where, you know, uses a personal hook. And then I had ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs look at the different op eds that chatgpt had produced and had them discuss amongst themselves, like what's effective about these, you know, what's missing in these and what was interesting, apart from the fact that they couldn't tell that it was created by chatgpt, was that, you know, then they could kind of get a sense for like this is what I think works as a reader. And then this is what I think is missing or like this language sounds awkward. And so you them kind of looking at it as an editor to write as well as a writer, I think was very helpful for them. And I do think when you like provide the assignments to kind of give a little guidance as to like what they should be writing about is helpful. So again, to say more than just like write an op ed, it kind of provide them with like a prompt of some sort will be more useful for them than just letting them go free range.

Rena [00:31:31] Yeah. Giving them some direction of what to pick.

Jen [00:31:34] And as I listen to you talk about that assignment and it sounds so exciting the way that you employ it in your class, I'm wondering, it sounds like you must scaffold this to some degree, like they're reviewing op eds that chatgpt produced. And then it sounds like it's not just an assignment where it's go, right. Not bad.

Ann [00:31:51] Yeah.

Jen [00:31:52] So I'm interested in how you kind of scaffold that across the course.

Ann [00:31:55] Yeah, that's true. So I have a reading and I can share it with you.

Rena [00:32:03] And we can link it.

Ann [00:32:04] And you can link it. I think it's from the I forget what the name of the org is called Social Scholars Network maybe. But they, they provide guidance to academics who are doing public facing work and they have basically a one pager on like how to write an op ed. So I assign that to my ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, they read that we talk about how to write an op ed, what makes an op ed different than other types of writing? They write a draft of the op ed. We do peer reviews, I should say before they did that, they looked at the chatgpt, generated OP eds and then they edit off of the peer reviews and then they turn in a revised version. So there's I mean, in my course there's a lot of like scaffolding and constant drafting because that's what writing is a process. Yes.

Jen [00:32:57] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Rena [00:32:58] But that's important to recognize that it isn't just especially with such a short piece of writing. It's easy to think, we'll just go ahead and do it. But as we know, that's not how writing works. It's still sometimes it's about, you know, you have to cut it down to that short length from writing more and researching more and then figuring out what's most important. So there's a lot of decision making that goes in the need for feedback. And I really love that chatgpt activity because it's essentially a genre analysis and then also gives them experience as, as you said, an editor or even a reader of OP Ed's to say, What did you feel connected to and how does this help you think about how you approach your own? So really gets them familiar with the genre. I think many ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, like you said, they might not even know from that word what they understand an op ed to be. The way that we engage with things online and scroll. Sometimes it's not always clear. So for them to actually have a clear path of seeing that genre and action across different examples. Well, thank you both for making time to share with us about your thoughts and experience with op eds through writing and teaching them. Anything else that you'd like to plug or share about your own work or your experiences?

Ann [00:34:07] I mean, if you're at Miami, you should be going to Howe events can I plug power events?

Rena [00:34:11] Absolutely. Sure.

Rena [00:34:13] You did, you plugged The Howe workshops very well throughout the podcast and the fellows because it's really influenced. I feel like a lot of how you're thinking about teaching this particular genre and working with ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs through it.

Ann [00:34:26] Absolutely. It's been transformative for me.

Rena [00:34:28] Yeah, absolutely. And I actually wanted to mention to, I believe, Jenn, that the ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ that you were talking about from our op ed workshop, Meredith Perkins, we actually also recorded a podcast with her about OP Ed's, and that's something that we want to be able to be shared with ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs as she talks about her process and are really just engaging and, as you say, demystifying way. I by the end, I was ready to go home and write up a op ed myself. I felt really like Meredith had really empowered me. So we hope that that and this podcast episode are resources for both you and your ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs as you think about incorporating this into your courses. It was so interesting to hear from Jenn and Anne about the usefulness of op eds and getting ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs voices heard and helping them see ways that they can engage with their communities on issues of interest and importance to them. We think both Jenn and Anne again, for not only saying yes to being guests on our podcast, but also for saying yes to any and all events and programs sponsored by the Howe. We really appreciate how you both are so involved and we learned so much from your teaching. Thank you, listeners, for tuning in to this episode. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast wherever you're listening from, so that you'll know right away when we release our next episode on E Portfolio's. You should also check out our blog post about OP. Ed's linked in the episode description below where you can find more guidance on and examples for writing in this genre. And don't forget if there's topics or kinds of writing that you'd like to hear about in future podcast episodes, write to us at HWac at Miamioh.edu.  We'd love to hear from you. Alrighty folks. And that is how we do it. Talk to you again soon. And click pause to get the lights back on. Sorry about that. They're motion sensored and apparently a motion. I appreciate you just going forward and might happen to us again. What a thought out.

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Episode 2 

Rena Perez [00:00:02] Hello listeners, and welcome to our second episode of "This Is Howe We Do It." I'm your host, Rena, a Graduate Assistant director of the Howe Writing Across the Curriculum program at ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ of Ohio. Today's episode is part of a two episode spotlight on the genre of op-eds,  brief opinion pieces written for platforms such as newspapers or magazines. I have to be honest with you, listeners. I'm going to be learning along with you in this podcast because I have never written an op-ed myself (trumpet sound effect), but it's always a genre I've been interested in using to exercise my writing power and write about my interests, so I'm excited to learn. I think I've been a little intimidated because of the public-facing aspect of this genre, but we shouldn't let it hold us back from sharing our opinions and knowledge with our communities. So I hope you're encouraged to do just that after listening to this episode and the perspective of a Miami ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ who has written op-eds for various publications, as she reflects on their importance, the process, and challenges of learning to write and publish them. I'm delighted to be joined today by Meredith Perkins, a junior at Miami, double majoring in Diplomacy and Global Politics and Creative Writing with minors in French and History. In addition to being an undergraduate writing consultant at the Howe Writing Center, Meredith is an opinion and food columnist with The Miami Student and senior editor of the Miami Political Review. As an op-ed writer, she has been featured in opinion columns on The Wall Street Journal, New York Times, Cincinnati Enquirer, Cleveland Plain Dealer, and the Miami Student, and recently won the Ohio News Media Association's Best Collegiate Column Writing award. This summer, she will be working as an intern on the opinion team with the Cincinnati Enquirer. We're so excited to have Meredith here with us. Alright, well, welcome to the This is Howe We Do It podcast, Meredith, and thank you for joining our conversation today and being our first ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ guest on our podcast. So we begin each of our podcast conversations by asking our guests about the last thing that you've written that you're excited about or proud of. So what comes to mind for you? Meredith? It doesn't have to be an op-ed.

Meredith Perkins [00:02:13] What definitely comes to mind is a paper I finished last night. It was actually my semester long research I've been doing. So this is like a 30 page article that I was very glad to finish with the Humanities Center here. I've been researching black lung in Central Appalachia and doing history research on coal town communities, so I'm really excited to get that research done. And then I'm presenting it this Friday, so in two days. So it's good to get it done and get ready for presenting it. So it is the biggest writing project I've done that's all like academic research, so it was a huge undertaking, especially in like a two month period. But it was really, really cool.

Rena Perez [00:02:48] Yeah, and 30 pages! That is very long. Is that something you'd be interested in getting published in some way? Some version of it?

Meredith Perkins [00:02:54] Yeah, so I'm interested in submitting it to a couple either labor history journals or Appalachian studies journals. I made sure it's under the max word count. It was actually a little bit longer than I had to cut it a bit because I ended up writing too much. But we'll see where it goes. I probably, you know, want to, you know, look at it after this week, give me some time to be away from the paper. Revisions very important. But yeah, I'm very excited to have this project finally reaching completion.

Rena Perez [00:03:20] Yeah, absolutely. And to be able to think about the possibilities of where it could go after this but live in this moment now, you got it done. It's a moment to celebrate. So congratulations and thanks for sharing about what's going on in your writing life and letting us celebrate with you. So before we dive into how we do OP Ed's, let's start with why OP Ed's, why are we doing an episode on OP Eds? It's possible that our listeners have never written an op ed before or even thought about it as a genre that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs could write as part of their courses. As I said in our intro, I've actually never written and publish an op ed before. It's always felt a little intimidating to me, so you'll have to talk me through it Meredith. So as a writer of many op eds yourself, why have you been drawn to OP Ed's as a genre and why do you think they're important, whether it's for a class or just your own interests and purposes?

Meredith Perkins [00:04:07] Yeah. So the first op ed I ever wrote, I had no idea what I was doing. It was never a thing where I didn't know anyone who had written for a newspaper. I didn't really know how to do it. I just jumped in and did it. And I think that's what was. I think that approach really worked because I think writing for the public is one of those things where, you know, if you have an opinion and you're like, You know what? I want to go and do something with this, what's stopping you? You don't have to wait for someone to give you, you know, like permission. So my first op ed, I wrote it on actually my 17th birthday, which was March 18th, 2020, which was an interesting time to be in the world. And I was reading an article in the news about people going to Florida for spring break as a bunch of Covid chaos was going on. And I was like, I feel like nobody right now. I was talking about what's happening with young people during the pandemic or trying to speak to young people to get them to social distance. And so I wrote a short letter and I sent it to a few newspapers. And at the moment is mostly for me just to feel like I was doing something. And I was like, maybe if I just do something to promote social distancing, I'll feel less stressed. And several days later I had forgotten that I had done this letter. And I got an email back from the New York Times asking to publish it. And when I was 17, I was still even, like, embarrassed to call myself a writer. I still thought it was like a hobby that would never really be realistic or it was like cringe to share my writing with people because like, you're a teenager and embarrassed by everything. So I was sitting with my parents. It was like, is it okay if I publish something in the New York Times? And my mom's like, What did you write? And then I'm like, No, it's it's good. And that week was such a it was such a valuable experience for me. And it really solidified my decision to actually major in creative writing and continue my interest in journalism, because from that one piece I had so many people reaching out to me. And, you know, because I went from an audience of zero never showing anybody anything to New York Times gets like 10 million readers and having people respond to me and realizing that an op ed could be a way to really help people or connect with new audiences or bring up perspectives that weren't commonly being talked about. I absolutely loved that. And so I think what I am really drawn to OP eds for is I like that they're really authentic. When you're reading an opinion section of the newspaper, it comes from a diversity of backgrounds. So in my case, it was a 17 year old girl, but it could be a community member, it could be a professor, it could be a researcher, a scientist. You don't necessarily have to be a, quote, professional journalist like I used to think you might have to be to do this type of writing.

Rena Perez [00:06:40] Yeah, I think what stands out to me from that story is, like you said, kind of taking ownership of that identity, of being a writer yourself at such a young age, which can feel intimidating at that time. But being willing to just, as you said, jump right in. I think that's great advice for thinking about how to get started, because I think that's why I felt it's a little intimidating to me is just as you said, it doesn't feel like, you know, why what should I talk about or why does my voice matter? But it's such a great way to connect with others that you could never even imagine that your writing would connect with.

Meredith Perkins [00:07:12] I think a lot of the time people almost inadvertently gatekeep themselves from participating in op eds because they think that they must have this made up list of qualifications. You must be some sort of journalist or you must identify or you must identify with being a writer. But again, you can be from any background and it's honestly best to have op ed writers that may have never written for the public before because we're bringing in new voices and you're supporting democracy by displaying a variety of voices. It's really important to encourage different types of people to consider writing for the public.

Rena Perez [00:07:44] Yeah, and different perspectives. As you said, your voice at that time kind of represented a different thing that was going on with, you know, your age group and how you felt kind of maybe that that wasn't you weren't identifying with the voices that were currently kind of out there celebrating being out in the public and you wanted to kind of represent a different group and a different perspective.

Meredith Perkins [00:08:02] Right? The only coverage that the news was giving was 17 year olds going to the beach in Florida and causing superspreading events. And I was like, no, maybe I can show what I've been doing and encourage other people to maybe stay inside and protect themselves. So it creates a different voice that might not be as widely reported or could be bringing up an issue that maybe people in your community know or your field know. But people beyond that bubble might not be familiar with.

Rena Perez [00:08:27] Right. And showing that that matters, right? To hear from all different perspectives and not just kind of hear that may be one mainstream perspective that we often hear on the news or the common network, some websites that we visit. So it's very important. And I feel like that's carried through your experiences with op ed, that similar purpose of just putting your voice out there and, you know, connecting with other audiences on issues in your community. So I know that you've been an active writer of op eds related to voting laws. For example, in Ohio specifically looking at House Bill 458. But what are some of the topics that you've written about in your most memorable op ed for you? So maybe tell us about a favorite op ed you've written.

Meredith Perkins [00:09:08] Yeah, so I've written op ads on a lot of types of things. I think there might be a misunderstanding that you only have to write an op ed on something that's boldly political. OP Eds can be a lot of different things for the Miami ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ. I've even just written op ed about trends that are going on and breaking down. Maybe Why is this happening? I wrote an op ed on why is the stanley water bottle so popular and giving my thoughts and sort of cultural analysis and the impact of, you know, influencer marketing on college ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs or should we be drinking less caffeine? So I often use the Miami ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ for my more like, fun op ed ideas. As far as political op eds I've done, I really enjoyed this one that I did for I did it for the Cincinnati Enquirer and I did a similar version for The Lexington Herald Leader, which is based in Kentucky, my home state. And it was about our governor election because our our governor, Andy Beshear, was on the campaign trail with Jack Harlow, who's a rapper. And while he was on the campaign trail with a rapper, the other candidate was using like Trump to do a tell rally. So I was like, these are two really different approaches going on. Why is Beshear, in the days before the election, going to college campuses and hanging out with a rapper who really isn't involved in politics? And the other one is choosing to rely on like a call from the president. And I analyzed the value of the youth vote in Kentucky, which is something that people haven't talked about, like the Jack Harlow appearance with Andy Beshear had been talked about on social media, about young people. But for newspaper audiences, which might skew a little older, they might not be as active on social media. Most traditional print media readers tend to be older. They might not realize, like the value of this and the value of the youth vote in Kentucky, and Beshear had won the election. So that was a really fun one to write. I've also so that was one of the longer ones I've done some of the shorter OP eds I wrote. Those are usually ones for national publications. So for The Wall Street Journal, I did one on presidential age like, like the sort of the topic of the week for future review, which is a college ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ column. They had was like, Are the presidential candidates too old to be running? And I'm like, are the questions more complicated than that? Or a column? Another Wall Street Journal feature I had was just speculating like, Do you think we'll be in the next World War three? And I argue probably not. So I think OP eds can be a lot of different things. Again, they can be fun. They can be also personal narratives. I've written op eds about being a college ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ with a disability, uplifting that perspective. They can be more than just educating on a certain law that's really valuable as well. With the House Bill 458 stuff one of the biggest issues with this bill was that it was really confusing and it was intended to be confusing to basically make it harder for out-of-state college ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to vote in the state that they reside in. And so with an op ed, I was able to use my background as a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ in the Department of Political Science to break this bill down in a really simple language. So people who might not have access to that academic language in the bill could understand what these new voter laws meant for them. And I think that's what's the great value of an op ed, whether you're writing about politics, something more fun, something more personal, is you're translating a topic that's unfamiliar to somebody and showing them a fresh perspective.

Rena Perez [00:12:14] Yeah, absolutely. I love that take on it. I feel like it's breaking down some of why I was a little intimidated. You're hitting on some misconceptions that I know I had about OP Ed's were just kind of the kind of topics that were important to write about and what kind of perspectives mattered in those ways. And I think you're showing me that it's really important to have that different variety of perspectives in our platforms and also to just talk about all kinds of things that are important because as you said, you never know when your perspective is going to change how another audience member is able to see a particular issue or just provide them information or context that they might not have had. Like, for example, the readers about why Jack Harlow was being is and who potentially that even is. So I think that's really important. I'm glad you hit on that.

Meredith Perkins [00:13:00] And I think with the misconceptions, people have. Another one I love clearing up is that the myth that all op eds have to be negative? Of course, a lot of updates are critical, but you can do an op ed in support of something or you can do an op ed thinking, I think this would be a great change to our community or I really enjoy this thing that's happening and we should increase funding for it. So op ed, you don't have to be like, I'm so mad about this. I want to write to the paper and be really frustrated. That's probably not going to get you published. If it's just a rant like you want to approach talking about issues with compassion and understanding different sides of arguments, but you can also, if you're like, I don't really know about what I want to write, you can, you know, I don't know if I'm like seeing a problem somewhere. You can also look at a solution you might really like and take it in a positive direction so op eds don't have to be complaining. They can also be uplifting new ideas that you're excited about.

Rena Perez [00:13:50] Yeah, I love that reframing too, because it's important just as much for people to know when we're upset or unhappy with how things are working in a particular context. Also, what we see working well and how we can continue to support that and be advocates behind that. And sometimes it's just good to hear from others that they see the work that's happening and that they can also then join in on kind of like, that's a really important take to have our important opinion. Let me consider that

Meredith Perkins [00:14:15]  Absolutely.

Rena Perez [00:14:17] So I think going off of that and thinking about what topics their motivations might kind of bring us to write an op ed, let's say you've got a topic in mind or something comes up that you care deeply about and you want to make your voice heard. What's your process for writing an op ed look like and how did you learn to write them?

Meredith Perkins [00:14:35] So the most important thing for me in finding inspiration for OP, Ed's has always been reading the news. So if you want to write more for the public, I would. I think the really good first place to start is to read the news daily and read different publications daily. This doesn't have to be sitting down for 30 minutes, but this could just be looking at opinion sections of maybe your local paper or some national papers to get that genre familiarity. So before I had written an op ed, I had read other opinion pieces. Of course, I told myself, I could never write like that. But I told myself that without ever having tried it. And so how my process usually goes is I'll look at news. I'll also look at trends that I'm noticing. I've been given advice when I was a freshman writing for the Miami ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, the then opinion editor, who's like since graduated several years ago, told me, like, whenever you're thinking of something to write for, for an opinion piece, think of just like what keeps coming up on your mind. What do you keep thinking about? So maybe for me, it's an issue I keep thinking about in my classes. Maybe there's a theme that's coming up about a current event that we're looking into in our field, or maybe it's an upcoming election or an upcoming bill that's going through, especially in a higher education institution. You know, we don't exist in a political vacuum. Any state policy in Ohio affects us. So keep paying attention to those things if that's something you're passionate about as policy advocacy. And so when I sit to write an op ed, it's a difficult genre to work in because unlike academic writing, you're writing short, you're writing concise, and newspapers are limited by page inches, which is the fancy word for just like how much space it can take up on a print edition. So you're usually looking at pieces, a letter to the editor under 200 words. An op ed might be 600. So you're wanting to use these sentences to make the absolute most. So the first thing I always start with is a really strong hook. I always want something that can kind of jump off the page and really center my argument or raise something that's really intriguing for people that they might not necessarily be like thinking about. So when I'm writing an op ed, I love starting with a hook that demands attention and needs to be something that jumps off the page and right. And this is the angle you're going at. So maybe this is a. Summary of or like a snapshot from an event you're writing about. Get people's attention and get them to care. Because I mean, we've all been scoring the news before we click on an article, the first sentence is boring. We click to the next thing you want to hold people's attention. And then I define the situation. And in this I try to be more objective and just saying, here's the base information about what happened. I might give a few sentences and then I define the consequences. This is what happens when this plays out. If this bill is passed, this is how it will impact ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs or because this has been passed, this is how it's impacted ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. And this is why that's maybe bad or why it's good. You could also talk about maybe what's unexpected or how would things be better or worse. And then a call to action. So basically, it's a four part process for me. I love ending with a call to action. Sometimes that's as simple as just saying call your representatives or, you know, for my how are we drinking too much caffeine article? It's like, maybe be mindful of why you're drinking coffee or maybe you just need to be sleeping more. But also, coffee is probably still okay to drink. Maybe we should all just add time for more rest in our routines. So maybe a call to action is just, you know, a call for and it looks different based on each article, essentially. So when I sit down to write, I'm okay with just I kind of I enjoy the free write strategy. So I write the first things that come to mind. And then I'll pause and then I'll go, okay, so this is my general angle. This is how I feel. Now let me pull in some sources so I look for reliable sources to try to back up things. Maybe there's been studies or about the topic that I've done because I think that it's much easier to just sell your argument to somebody if you showed that, okay, you've read what other people have been saying, you've, you know, looked and seen if maybe what your solution you're advocating for works in other places. So I like to add in research sometimes I'll read other things before, but I usually just like getting down on the page a little bit. What are my initial thoughts for each of the four steps. Sometimes, an op ed takes me 20 minutes. Sometimes it takes me several hours. My most recent Op-Ed with The Wall Street Journal. I wrote that in like 15 minutes. I was very shocked, very excited. I mean, like, I felt good about it, but I was like, Really? This one is the one that made it and other ones I've submitted haven't because I did not spend as much time on this one. A lot of times I'll just like free write op edits, just just to keep the muscle fresh, like just to keep it as part of my practice. So I'll use often like a news article and as an exercise I'll go, how would I write an op ed about this? Or my response to this? So the process looks usually something like that. And I think overall, though, it shouldn't take more than maybe a few hours for somebody to do something like this, because these pieces are short. They're not supposed to be super long because your average reader, they might not be someone with a college education and there definitely might not be someone who has hours to read a really long piece on something.

Rena Perez [00:19:28] Sure. Yeah. And you're kind of also providing some of the research for them in that way, too. So there's some, you know, time involved with learning about the topic. But because it's something that you already have an opinion on, you already have some sense of how you feel about it. That kind of brings a lot of the ideas and angle, I think, to the free write, it sounds like when you engage in that process.

Meredith Perkins [00:19:48] Something I also love to do, and I definitely encourage other ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs or maybe faculty members to encourage their ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to do this is if you've written maybe an academic essay for a class, thinking of a way to translate the issue that you're talking about into an op ed because you've done the research, you know the situation inside out, especially with political science classes. I'm a diplomacy major. We talk about current events every single day. I've used those as inspiration for some of the op eds I've written because you realize that, these things that I talk about in class, these are things that maybe people outside of a college institution aren't getting. They might not be included in these conversations or it might be something like, well, everybody in my diplomacy field will understand this, but not everybody is some sort of diplomacy major and is going to automatically understand the things that might seem obvious to you. So attempting to write things as an op ed, it's a really great way to transport or transform research or a piece of writing you've already done into a forum that's really accessible for people. So with the research I've just done on Black Lung in Appalachia, this is a 7000 word article, I think, to actually reach coal mine miners. That article is not going to be reaching coal miner populations. So my next step with that is to write OP as related to silica dust policy for miners, because that's something that can engage that part of the public. So while my research, as I'm talking about it at presentations, yes, I'm probably, you know, going to go to conferences for it or submit it for publication. I also want to reach public audiences as well. And you can do both, which is great.

Rena Perez [00:21:18] Yeah, I love that you made that point because you hit on how essay a lot of the academic writing that we do the essay format that oftentimes our papers take in coursework. It doesn't always translate to the audiences that we want to reach in the publics and in our communities. It's also potentially not going to be the kind of writing that we do once we go out into our profession. So to start practicing and exercise that muscle of taking that writing that we've done in courses and imagine what it would look like in these other genres to reach audiences in different ways. I think that's so important and I think it's something also that a lot more instructors, as you mentioned, faculty, could encourage their ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to do with the research that they're doing, but also as part of their courses.

Meredith Perkins [00:22:01] And what's especially valuable about getting ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs about writing is it's a very accessible way into publication for a lot of fields. Academic publication can be extremely difficult or even expensive, especially for science writers to break into. But by writing for op ads, especially applying to local newspapers, even writing for the Miami ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ, for my experience currently working at a local newspaper, they're always very excited to be hearing feedback on their pieces in the form of letter to the editors, engaging with current events that are being covered in the paper. They're always looking for interesting and new voices, especially ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ voices. Pretty much everywhere I've submitted, even if I've submitted an article where they're like, We just ran something similar to this, Could maybe you focus more on this instead? They often offer feedback and help walk me through that process. So by and large, all the editors I've worked with for different papers have just been super nice and helpful. So for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs that might feel intimidated about breaking into that field, don't. This is a really great, accessible way to get published and, you know, help grow that CV, that resume and real world career skills because when you go into the workforce, you're probably not writing an academic essay, but you will probably be asked to write, you know, something that's for the public or write a brief or write something really concisely and eds build those skills. When you have 200 words to build a really well thought out argument, each word you say is really important and these are excellent writing skills have definitely helped me be a better writer in my classes and a better writer of academic essays.

Rena Perez [00:23:28] Yeah, it really helps you hone in on not only your writing skills, but your own voice. I feel like it's a great way to exercise and figure out what that is in your writing because it is so heavily influenced by your own perspective and the way that you're seeing the issues. So or just wanting to talk about something, some experience that you've had. So it really helps you, I feel like, to craft that.

Meredith Perkins [00:23:48] I love that you brought up the role of the author's voice, because that for me is what distinguishes op eds from academic essays. I love writing academic essays. I would not, you know, be doing a really long research paper if I didn't right. But what happens in academic essays is sometimes you're sort of actively encouraged to remove yourself from the piece, which is great. You want objective information, you want research that you know isn't... I'm not the star of the show. And my research, the star of the show is the research. With op eds, they want to read your voice. You're allowed to be funny. I always try to be funny in mine. Like, I think that it's easier to win people over if they think you have a good demeanor, I guess. But you're allowed to offer your personal opinion. You don't have to be neutral. It's it's why I when I came to Miami and joined the ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ paper, I went straight to opinion because I knew if I was doing a reported story, I'm like, no, I want to say what I'm thinking. I want to get my angle on this, which is not what you want. And just, you know, I wouldn't be giving just the straight facts, which is important, but I like opinion more. And so for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs who maybe you're in a class where, you know, you write in research different topics, but you've never really had the chance to put yourself into your your work. And by that I mean writing in casual language, maybe adding something funny or adding your personality or, you know, adding kind of being a little sassy in your writing.

Rena Perez [00:25:08] Or your own experience as evidence. Some, you know, fields or courses are less willing to kind of they want more secondary research. They're not willing to hear kind of what your place in the research is.

Meredith Perkins [00:25:18] Right? Auto ethnography in op eds is absolutely excellent. It makes for excellent. It's things people want to read. Of course it's some of my favorite op eds have just been people talking about their own experiences. It's it's so amazing that this genre there's very few limitations of what you can't really write as an op ed. You have so much creative freedom and I think this is great because it does not matter what field you are in, whether you are in business, whether you are in Stem, whether you are in arts, whether you are in the humanities. Writing op eds isn't just a thing for political science majors. I think anybody can really do it and I encourage it so heavily because I think if I don't know, I think I did start writing op ed really early, but I think if I had felt capable of doing it, I would have started like I would have started earlier.

Rena Perez [00:26:05] Even earlier than 17

Meredith Perkins [00:26:07] Maybe like 16.5.

Rena Perez [00:26:09] No, but I think it's a great way like, you know, writing is because of the Internet so accessible. I think to us at a young age, like you could start your own blog, you could be writing on a website. But the idea of actually having that heard by public audiences, this is kind of a genre that really can help you make that transition as a writer and see your writing out in the world and where it can make a difference. Take action, connect with other people. I'm sure you often hear from people that have read your op eds. Whether that's a good or bad thing. I don't know which kind of maybe leads me to one of my next questions. What do you find most challenging about writing or publishing op eds? There might be things more in the process of writing, but I'm sure the receiving of them is also a challenge.

Meredith Perkins [00:26:50] So the first time I did an op ed for like a national publication, I had a comment section was my first Wall Street Journal op ed, and I got over 500 comments. And I didn't really read any of them. So if they were saying it was bad, I have no idea. Right. So I think and I. I would say that, of course, there's going to be comments. Maybe people won't agree with you. I've had an article I did on House Bill 458 in the Cincinnati Enquirer. I think it was the Enquirer. Someone wrote a letter to the editor disagreeing with my stance. So you will have people engage with you, but that's okay. Like the point of bringing up this topic in the paper was to have people engage with my opinion. And I think, you know, the goal of an opinion section, obviously you're trying to get people to share out your argument, but I'm okay if they still think that they don't agree with me. Of course I would like them to write. You know, I believe in my opinions, but it's to get a conversation started. So if you're sharing your experience, you're starting at a point for conversation. But I would say 99% of the time I get really positive feedback. I'll have people that will email me or some will be like, I read your paper. I was like, oh my gosh. Like it's it's so exciting seeing how many people you can, you know, you can reach out to. And so when you're writing for public audiences, sure, there might be like spambots on a news website, but don't be afraid of those that should not stop you from using your voice. Because I think, you know, and there's going to be a lot of things that try to stop you from wanting to use your voice, whether it's your own insecurity or a fear that, maybe people won't like my writing and don't listen to any of that. Your voice matters because, you know, I've had you know, sometimes people ask me like, well, what makes somebody a good op ed writer? You have a unique experience that no one else has because nobody else has you. And that qualifies you to have an opinion on topics that you have personal experience with or topics you're interested about in class. So I think the challenges are definitely self-doubt and feel uncomfortable with the genre because it is bold to write for the public the first time and expand your audience. Sometimes you know, you know, you could maybe look at comments, maybe those are negative. I wouldn't let that deter people. That's just the world, right? And I think the other challenge is sometimes condensing within the word count. I'm a very wordy person. You can tell from how long I've talked in this podcast that I can ramble about things. So getting to the word count after having written a couple dozen op eds I'm more quick at that, but for first time op ed writer that that can be hard. But that's okay because writing is a process is not natural for everybody. You don't wake up knowing how to do something. You just have to try. And every person who's ever been a professional journalist started by at least trying to write something, right? So

Rena Perez [00:29:29] And that stands out to me, too. And what you were saying that, you know, you have so much flexibility and creativity in how you write, what you write when it comes to an op ed. But obviously, the structure of it, the very condensed word length, is one of the things that you have to get used to and kind of continue to practice with. And I can imagine myself as a very lengthy, wordy writer that I would write a lot and then kind of figure out what is my message and have to kind of condense it to that and find, like you said, every word kind of has some currency that in what you're saying to get across your message.

Meredith Perkins [00:30:01] Right. And I think that's such a valuable way to go about the process, too, is just free writing, okay, here's all the thoughts that I have on it. And then, okay, what's the core here? What is the thing I most want people to know? And sometimes you might be writing for a newspaper and they'll let you go over the word count, or they'll be like, Yeah, okay. Usually we don't do this long, but we'll keep it. So I've had ones that have been longer than the required word count. If I just kind of argue for it a little bit, if it's, you know. But yeah, most of the time it's okay. And then also that's when you can work with editors, especially with the Miami ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ editors I've had, have been really helpful with helping me figure out what might not be as essential in my pieces. So this is where going to the writing center or looking to an editor looking to a colleague could be really helpful in helping whittle down to what an article should look like and process. And again, it's why I encourage people to read opinion sections just to get a familiarity with the genre. So you could see maybe how other people in the op ed space go about prioritizing which information to include. Usually you keep context pretty condensed and maybe offer a link where people could read more about that, but focusing the bulk on your argument. So we don't need the full entire history for doing a longer, maybe editorial piece. Maybe you can get into that. But focusing on the present and what's most urgent because, you know, newspapers, it's all about what's going on right now. And your, you know, op ed should be connected to something timely or something that you feel is good for the current moment.

Rena Perez [00:31:28] Yeah, and I think that connects with your point about being an avid reader of them and knowing what people are saying currently so that your voice is fitting into that conversation and adding or extending it or kind of giving a different perspective on it than what's been given before. I think that's a really helpful kind of first step is just start reading some op eds that are about topics of interest to you and just finding out what that genre is really about. But I think your point too, about there is some flexibility there. Sometimes you have to work with the editor, but having that outside reader, whether it's an editor or someone that you work with at the writing center or even just a friend to read over and kind of give that sense of. What's resonating with them? What feels more essential? I think that's an important step of the process, too.

Meredith Perkins [00:32:13] I think a really good way to start in especially a really good way that professors could start ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs with writing an op ed as a topic is to give a current news article on an issue or maybe, you know, identities you've discussed in your class, maybe like, you've talked about this person and this is like something new that they've come out with in their research. Or maybe you've talked about, for example, you've talked about like food policy and there's this current bill being proposed about school lunches, something like that. So I think it's really helpful to start writing op eds, as reactions to things. So like my first op ed was a reaction piece. So with the letter to the editor, you write into the newspaper about a piece that you've read. The piece I read was about a bunch of people going on spring break to Florida and spreading Covid and saying, Yeah, like so in this coverage they talked about this and in this piece I noticed this and I think that we should be talking about this, a very vague way of stating it, but essentially looking at what's in the news or something new that's going on in your field and having ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs write an opinion piece reacting to it. I think a lot of times ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs don't have a lot of it besides maybe like reflections or discussion post ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs don't have a lot of opportunities to give opinion in academic spaces. So I think it's a really great way to promote not just free speech in the classroom, but it's a really fun assignment. When I've had ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs come into the writing center with op eds. I think they usually try to book me because they know I write op eds. It's a lot of them really like it and they really engage with it, and I think they feel really motivated to revise it. And one of the ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs I worked with at the writing center, they got their op ed published and they were really excited to show me it. And I think that's what's really valuable is as a professor, if you make it as an assignment, you could send someone on a journey of writing for the public and advocating for issues that they may not have previously had the confidence to speak to the public with about.

Rena Perez [00:34:02] Yeah, I think that's a good way. And to especially in thinking about a course context is just having ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs react to what they read. I think that's another, you know, possible commonality and in academic spaces is that we're all. Often reading to just take in information and learn from it and not necessarily having an out, you know, outpacing response to it and how we feel about it and what our ideas and experiences bring to that. So I think that's a great way to open up and show that it's a conversation. All right. Well, as we close our conversation to today, for today, I know you've given a lot of different advice across this entire conversation. So I'm not sure if there's one particular piece of advice that you would leave to someone like me who's thinking about writing an op ed for the first time. But if you have one, I know what's standing out to me is just jump right in. I need to start reading a few things. I need to think about a couple topics that I would love to have a voice on and then read what other voices are saying about it and find my space within it and some platforms and people that might be interested in hearing about it.

Meredith Perkins [00:35:06] So I'll try to get something more original than the advice that I've been peddling. The entire podcast, right, is using your op ed to talk about something that's not being talked about or to take a really unique angle on a topic that other people might not be responding to it with. I think an example is so one of the op ed discussions. So The Wall Street Journal runs the ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ contest called Future View. It's every week. It's a really accessible way for college ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to try op ed writing. I would recommend entering a weekly contest you might just win. The topic was Do you think we're going to have the next World War Three in our lifetimes? And a lot of people answered by being like, yes because of this? No, because of this. And my answer and I think why I got published was because I go, I don't think World War three is the correct way to frame an international conflict because current day conflict isn't like the past two world wars, like warfare has changed was basically my argument. I used my diplomacy background to translate that and I focus my article mostly on, well, why is this something people talk about in the first place? So I wasn't just trying to answer the question. I was trying to go, Why do we have this question? And that was a way that I took the question and kind of made it unique and fit my own voice and interests and how I like to analyze things and sort of my skeptic personality. So what this can look like is maybe you're reading a news article on a topic and you're like, I think there's some people that should be talked about in this conversation that aren't or they're talking about these two public policy solutions, but really, this third could possibly work. So looking and using your expertise or your personal experience, whatever appeals to you and using that to inspire a new angle to a conversation. And I also think that increases your odds of getting published if you write an op ed that's, you know, I don't know. I'm trying to think of some that's really generic. Climate change is something that we should prevent. That's a that's a take that isn't super unique. A take that might be more unique would be here's something that we could be doing to improve zero waste in our community, and this hasn't been explored before in our town, but in these places it worked. So taking something you can start with a more generic opinion of, I think, House Bill 458 is bad. Okay. Why does it bother me? It bothers me because it's impacting college ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs and people aren't talking about that. So you can start with something vague, but getting specific and it's a similar technique could use an academic writing. You can't just do a whole paper on like, I don't know, like, I don't know, fashion in literature. Okay, You got to get specific fashion in 1920s, Lost generation literature based in Paris. Okay, that's more specific and that could be more unique. So I think focusing on the things you're interested in. Oh yeah. Also, that's probably the best advice. Write about what you think is cool. So make it specific. Write about something you're interested in because if you have passionate about it, that's where your voice can really shine through. So again, if you're feeling like when you're writing an op ed, you're like, I don't know what my op ed voice sounds like. Just keep working with it again, writing always is a weird process. You know, your writing voice might not always feel like your natural voice, so you could even talk out the issue out loud to yourself and be like, okay, how could I translate that to paper? So there's a lot there's no wrong way to approach an op ed. Well, there probably is some wrong ways, you know, you want to use your platform constructively, all that good stuff, but overall, go for it and come up with something unique that's not being talked about.

Rena Perez [00:38:27] Yeah, something that you just offered me and I think a lot of listeners will take away too, is just the process that you kind of talked through, not only of writing an op ed, which you've shared with us throughout this whole podcast, but actually just forming your voice and forming a very specific opinion. It's oftentimes that we, you know, would agree with a very, you know, general stance on something, but to actually hear a more nuanced voice of what that looks like in a particular community or for someone's experiences or thinking about this particular marginalized group or, you know, taking that different angle or different frame by being really specific on how your voice and experience can share something on this issue that no one else can't. Like you said, that's what makes everyone an op ed writer and everyone unique in that way. So I really appreciate that. And it makes me feel like it's not just something I could do, it's something I should do. I should make this part of the writing that I'm doing on a regular basis. I'm looking to get published just like I think about my academic writing.

Meredith Perkins [00:39:27] Yeah, it's a great way to be an active citizen or an active community member in the spaces you exist in. It's a great way to support local journalism. Local opinion sections are often about things that might be only happening in Cincinnati or only happening in Oxford, and these might be opinions that national outlets might not cover. So that's the importance of local journalism getting involved in local outlets and supporting your community by using your voice. I do kind of feel almost it's a duty for me to write op eds because I see that, okay, with this privilege of a college education, I can read legal documents, I can read longer articles that might not be accessible to members of the public. With this skill, I can help people understand things that will improve their lives and improve the communities I'm a part of. Even though I write my opinions a lot and sometimes they can be critical. I'm a very optimistic person and I see op eds as just a great way for people to make positive change in communities.

Rena Perez [00:40:19] Yeah, it's a way to give back while also doing things that you know are of interest to us and getting involved in our community and different things that are happening that we care about and can make a difference in. All right. Well, thank you so much for making the time to chat with us today about OP Ed's. I really appreciate just personally hearing your perspective on it, and I am hoping to be able to report back to you soon with some progress that I've made myself on kind of those first steps that you mentioned and suggested to us today. Anything else that you'd like to plug or share before we end our podcast today?

Meredith Perkins [00:40:54] Sure. I think if you want to read any of the OP as I write, you can check my column in the Miami Student. You can look for my pieces in the Cincinnati Enquirer this summer. Well, I'll be on their opinion team and I'll definitely be looking out for all of my listeners. So definitely, if you are in the Miami campus community, reach out and I'd be so excited to read your op ed writing and see what amazing work our listeners can do in their communities. You could also see a portfolio of my op ed work on my website. Meredith wrote this.com.

Rena Perez [00:41:25] I love that. That's a great think it's great that you snagged that you are.

Meredith Perkins [00:41:29] I know right? I was trying to think of like okay, how should I describe my portfolio? And I'm like, Well, Meredith wrote all.

Rena Perez [00:41:35] Of this, really?

Meredith Perkins [00:41:36] All of it.

Rena Perez [00:41:38] It was so interesting to hear from Meredith about her experiences with starting to write op eds at such a young age. Her process for writing them and her advice for those of you who like me, who will be writing in this genre for the very first time, we thank Meredith again for sharing all of her insights on op eds. She does so much for the Howe center and around Miami and in the community, and it never goes unnoticed. You're a rock star, Meredith, And thank you, listeners, for tuning in to this episode. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast. Wherever you're listening from, you'll know right away when we release our next episode where we talk more about OP Ed's with faculty, this time with a greater focus on teaching this genre. Check out our blog post about op eds links in the episode description below, where you can find more guidance and examples for writing in this genre. And don't forget if there's topics or kinds of writing that you'd like to hear about in future podcast episodes. Write to us at each rack at Miami Star Edu. We'd love to hear from you. All righty, folks. And that. Is how we do it. Talk to you again soon. Sorry the lights went off on us in the studio. I. I don't know. We can lie podcasting in the dark. I just. Check this out. It's a motion sensor.

Meredith Perkins [00:43:00] And then I got to make sure to wave my hand. I need to.

Rena Perez [00:43:04] Get off pushing.

In the episode, Elizabeth Hoover and Liz Wardle talk about the purpose of capstone projects, the importance of letting ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs take the lead, and what ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs learn from these engaging capstone experiences at ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ.

• HCWE handout on  Creating Capstone Assignments
• Miami Writing Spotlight about Designing Transformative Capstones

Check out these resources at our website: /HCWE or write to us at hwac@miamioh.edu if you have questions or ideas for topics you’d like to hear about in future podcasts.

Hosted on Acast. See  for more information.

Episode 1 - Capstones - Liz & Elizabeth.mp3

Rena Perez [00:00:03] Hello listeners, and welcome to our first official episode of "This is Howe We Do It." I'm your host, Rena, a Graduate Assistant Director of the Howe Writing Across the Curriculum Program at ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ of Ohio. I'm so excited to kick off our podcast today with a great conversation about capstones, why they are such meaningful experiences for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs' learning, and how ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs can use writing in capstones to communicate across different audiences. So what are capstones? Well, many universities offer capstone courses for senior ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs as a way to end their undergraduate programs with a unique project. Capstone projects help to draw connections between ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs' learning and skills from their various experiences from the university and beyond, and then apply them often through writing across different genres. Here at ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ of Ohio, our undergraduate programs culminate ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs' learning through a senior capstone experience that is also part of our liberal education experience called the Miami Plan. Today's episode discusses some qualities of effective senior capstone projects and the role of writing within these projects to support ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs' learning. How can we use writing in our capstone projects to teach and reinforce to ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs the important skills we want them to take from their education into their professional lives? We wanted to hear perspectives from two faculty at Miami who have been thinking about the bigger picture of capstones in ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs' education and how writing shapes this, learning in ways that prepares our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs for the next steps. Our two guests for today have a lot of insight to offer us on the best practices for designing capstone projects and how writing can support these goals from different perspectives through their administrative roles at the university as well as their own teaching. We're joined today by Elizabeth Hoover, a teaching professor in musicology in the Department of Music, specializing in 20th century music and American experimentalism. It was a little difficult for me to say that, but I made it through. She also serves as the current associate director of liberal Education. The role that brings her here today to chat with us about capstones and the role that they play in culminating a liberal education. We're also joined by Elizabeth Wardle, our director of the Howe Center for Writing Excellence and the Roger and Joyce Howe, Distinguished Professor of Written Communication. As Director of the Howe, Liz works with Miami faculty in all disciplines on teaching writing in their courses, playing an important role in writing instruction across our campus. But we've asked her here today more specifically as an instructor who frequently teaches senior capstones, both at Miami and at her previous institution. I'm so excited for this conversation today, so let's get into it. Alright. Well, welcome to you both and thank you for joining us on the This is Howe We Do It podcast. You are our first guests to our podcast, so we really appreciate you for being willing and thank you in advance for bearing with me as I learn how to podcast, how to host. But we want to begin each of our podcast conversations by asking our guests the last thing that you've written that you're most proud of or excited about. So Liz, what comes to mind for you?

Liz Wardle [00:03:10] Yesterday, I finally finished a group draft of something we've revised about a hundred times about the challenges to higher ed given the state of anti-democracy forces and then the role of our field in helping people think about what, you know, education should be doing. And we have rewritten and rewritten and rewritten. And I was really, really proud to finally send that off to the rest of the group.

Rena Perez [00:03:37] Yeah. How exciting! Lots of hard work that went into that. But it's such an important thing to write about and share that message with others.

Liz Wardle [00:03:44] Yeah, it's pretty depressing, but we tried to end on a positive note.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:03:48] How did you end on a positive note?

Liz Wardle [00:03:50] We just sort of did an exhortation to the field that this is the moment when what we know as rhetoric scholars really matters because people don't know how to sort out the messages that they're getting and how to, sort of, seek truth and fact from fiction and that that is what we know how to do. And so, it's our moment if we can figure out how to actually seize it and figure out how to do outward facing projects, which is sort of what it was about.

Rena Perez [00:04:17] Interesting. So kind of a call to action for others to take up this work and see the importance of it.

Liz Wardle [00:04:22] Yeah. And one of the examples was the Miami Writing Institute, which we obviously did here at the Howe Center.

Rena Perez [00:04:28] Very nice! A good way to market that to others to see the different ways that are possible to put out our work to the public.

Liz Wardle [00:04:35] Yeah.

Rena Perez [00:04:36] Wonderful! Thanks Liz. And how about you, Elizabeth Hoover? What is something that you've recently written that you were proud of or excited about?

Elizabeth Hoover [00:04:43] Well, I have all semester been thinking through the redesign of one of my courses. It's a film music course, and I was thinking through it and I really wanted to concentrate on listening and actually using writing to help ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs think through what they're hearing and interpreting what they're hearing. So I rebranded; the course is now Cinematic Listening, and I am proud of the opening narrative that explains what the purpose of the course is and how it relates to our liberal education at Miami, but more importantly, at the center of it, and almost all of the assessment, is a portfolio!

Rena Perez [00:05:22] Oh yeah!

Elizabeth Hoover [00:05:23] It's a cinematic listening portfolio.

Rena Perez [00:05:26] How exciting!

Elizabeth Hoover [00:05:26] Very exciting! There are film music theory notes, there are screening synthesis brochures, a culminating poster that they create and they share it. So I'm very excited about that. And so writing those instructions in a transparent way for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to also be excited and not kind of scared of maybe the theoretical readings and very excited about how you can use that as a frame to understand listening to film.

Rena Perez [00:05:55] Yeah, absolutely. A lot of different moving parts for their portfolio, but allows them to engage with different genres and then kind of see how it all comes together in their learning experience. We love a good portfolio over at the Howe Center! We actually will have an episode on portfolios later this semester, so keep an eye out for that! Alright, well, thank you both for sharing what you've been writing about lately and letting us celebrate your writing lives with you. So now to begin our conversation today, we are going to be chatting about capstone projects in today's podcast. So I wanted to start by learning more about why capstones remain such a valuable and important part of ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs' learning and liberal education. Elizabeth Hoover, if you'd start, from your liberal education perspective, would you explain what capstones and their culminating projects are designed to do? What stands out to you as important for all ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to take away from this as their final liberal education experience?

Elizabeth Hoover [00:06:49] They are very, very important because they are demonstrative of liberal education at Miami and not necessarily only a culminating part of the program they've been pursuing while at Miami. So all of the Miami plan courses that they have been engaging with throughout their years at Miami are focus on these four pillars. So there are there are communication and expression, critical and integrative thinking, civic mindedness and social engagement, and collaboration and innovation. Those are important to all Miami plan courses and the development of certain dispositions and perspectives and skills. And so the capstone is a place for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to be able to really bring how they've developed and honed these skills in their entire Miami Plan experience and liberal education experience towards the end of their time at Miami after they have pursued 93 hours here.

Rena Perez [00:07:53] Yeah, it's a very integrative experience to really help them make connections between their learning and their program, as well as in all of the Miami Plan courses that they've taken in their time here. So what stands out to you as like a takeaway from this experience that you often see ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs getting from a capstone project?

Elizabeth Hoover [00:08:10] I think the most important piece is that they are engaging with data or primary sources and sharing knowledge and interpretation and reflection outside of the classroom. And I'm sure that Liz Wardle will talk about this more, but thinking about not just their time at Miami and classroom spaces, but the outside world problems that exist in the world and how they can bring those pillars skills to the forefront in a project that is ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ initiated and driven by the learner.

Rena Perez [00:08:50] Yeah, that's something I really love about capstone projects is the agency that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs have in picking a project that is passionate, that they're passionate about and that they want to make a difference in, and then to be able to apply everything that they've learned, their strengths and knowledges and that interest and to thinking about problem solving in their local communities. And Liz, I know your recent professional writing capstone ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs also kind of work to make a change in their community through the ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ debt crisis. They created campaigns that help them spread awareness about the problem, which also included various genres of writing, such as infographics, websites, stickers, brochures, etc. could you tell us more about this capstone project and what led you to design it in this way?

Liz Wardle [00:09:34] Sure. So every time I teach a capstone course, I try to think about a sort of a theme or a way to consider the role of writing and rhetoric in the world. And so I guess the best thing about teaching a capstone in rhetoric is that everything can be related. And so last, the last time I taught this in 2022, I was really thinking about the ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ debt crisis. There was a lot of conversation about it and about ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ loan forgiveness. And so it just seemed like it might be relevant to the ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs as they were graduating from Miami. So in terms of design, what I like to do every time I teach a capstone is really give them a chance to learn about the problem that we're taking up so that they really get educated. So they read Chris Newfield's book called The Great Mistake: How We Wrecked Public Education and How We Can Fix It, which I highly recommend, and then we did some other research, and then they started really thinking about what they cared about, what problems they wanted to solve. They got to know each other and then they moved into groups and started identifying the problem their group wanted to solve and then what they could actually create using rhetoric in order to make a change in the world. And they all did very, very different things depending on, you know, what the problem was.

Rena Perez [00:10:55] Yeah, I remember that year your ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs hosted a sharecase to actually show with to the public what they'd created and also really spread awareness and inform the public about what the ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ loan debt crisis is and how they can be, you know, partners in helping to solve this problem as well. What was really memorable, too, about what ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs took away from that experience or what they created?

Liz Wardle [00:11:18] Yeah. So, I mean, I think that we always have a challenge of convincing our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs that they're actually creating something useful for the world. They're not just doing something for their teacher. And so having that sharecase with stakeholders who actually cared about the problem was, I think, really pivotal to getting them over the final, you know, the final hump of the class because a lot of them are graduating seniors and so by April, everybody's really struggling. And so that final sharecase was a chance for--like we had somebody come from the Ohio Department of Higher Ed, we had people come from the president's office at Miami from ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ financial aid, and, you know, a lot of their friends came. And they all said afterward, you know, with great shock and excitement, oh my gosh, like, what I did actually mattered. People cared about it. The, you know, adults, the working adults who came didn't know all the things that we had to share. And so I think that that that to me, is what a Miami education is supposed to do, help them be critical thinkers who can make a change in the world. And so it's really exciting to see that actually happening at the sharecase.

Rena Perez [00:12:28] Yeah, I can imagine that that was a really impactful experience for them to actually see the audiences that they're writing to and interact with them and the impact that they had created through the materials that they had developed in their groups where it was then actually be able to apply that to the world and start the process of educating others and spreading awareness.

Liz Wardle [00:12:50] Did any of the ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, and I guess, professionals, once they graduate, continue their work?

Rena Perez [00:12:58] That's a good point. I think we often want them ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs in capstone courses to make connections with local communities. And then how do they continue those partnerships or even continue to work towards those problems after their time in the course?

Liz Wardle [00:13:11] And that's definitely happened in other capstones that I've taught. So the previous capstone that I taught was really thinking about misconceptions about writing and how to correct them. And so one person I remember very clearly was going to be a teacher. And so part of what she was doing was creating different kinds of teaching materials to help her ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs understand writing differently. And I've kept in touch with her, and so I know that she definitely used that material and that it's really helped shape her thinking. So, you know, whether I hear from them or not, I hope that it's helping them, you know, not just about that topic in particular, but also to recognize that you don't just have to accept things as they are. You can actually work to make change and that you have the capability of doing that. That's what I really want them to get out of that capstone, and I think it is the goal of the Miami Plan, and the capstone as part of the Miami Plan.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:14:05] Yeah.

Rena Perez [00:14:07] Yeah, to see their own role in learning about what's happening around them and to step up and that they have the power to make that change. And that's such an important takeaway for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs who are doing a capstone project.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:14:18] They're informed citizens that can can make change.

Rena Perez [00:14:21] And I think one of the most applicable or transferable things from the example you gave was is the communicating with different target audiences. And no matter what profession they go into, they will be asked to think about how they can target messages depending on who their audience is. So I think that's a great exercise in that task.

Liz Wardle [00:14:41] Yeah. And I think part of that task is learning all the genres that are available to them as they do that. And so often when I do the capstone, we first start writing genres that are a little more like school. So they have to research the project and they have to do, you know, summaries of what they're reading and then do sort of like a white paper or a report just so that you it's clear that they know something before they start creating these outward facing projects. So we start with school genres, but then when the day comes when we say, well, what are you going to do to make change in the world about the ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ debt crisis or about the fact that for-profit institutions, for example, are really predatory? You know, it took a while for them to recognize that there are so many other genres available to them outside of school. So some of them started making, you know, websites, some of them made posters, some of them made stickers, some of them did social media campaigns. And so all of that, you know, they had to sort of wrap their heads around the fact that if you want to make change, there's many possible genres available to you to make change and that the only genres that count are not just school type genres. And I think that's exciting for them because a lot of them have all kinds of experiences that Miami doing graphic design or social media or, you know, all sorts of things that they don't necessarily recognize they could leverage in service of a problem that they want to solve. So to me, if that's where they get by the time they graduate, I think that's really exciting.

Rena Perez [00:16:13] Yeah. And I think it helps them to think about what is the best way to reach the audience that I'm looking to reach. What genre will help them to engage with the material in a way that will then lead to action or change? So, yeah.

Rena Perez [00:16:26] Yeah. It's clear that, you know, thinking about outside audiences and how capstone projects can help ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs learn how to communicate with them is an important part of the initiative for capstone. One thing that I found really interesting about the data from Liberal Education's assessment of senior capstones a few years ago were the findings that identifying an authentic audience for the project was not as present in that previous assessment. So at that time, nearly half of the projects assessed didn't have an audience for the project other than the teacher. But that's something that I know you both have been working on the last few years to help other instructors see ways that they could integrate outside audiences into the projects that they're having ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs work on. So starting with you Liz, from your perspective as a writing instructor, why is it so meaningful to emphasize having an audience outside of the instructor?

Liz Wardle [00:17:16] Well, this is been a large part of my research over the years, and I think it's really clear that writing for a real audience just engages you in different ways than writing for a made up audience or writing for a teacher. I mean, teachers are real, but I think they think of us as, you know, this is school. I'm doing school. And so I really love the chapter by Joseph Petraglia where he talks about the pseudotransactional nature of a lot of school writing that, you know, pretending to solve a problem, pretending to write for an audience just does not get you to do the same things as writing for a real audience. And I have seen that to be true almost every time that I have taught. I'm teaching the grant writing class right now. And, you know, the stuff they did for me was fine. But now that they have a real nonprofit partner who's really expecting them to give them a draft of a grant that they desperately need for the work they're doing, it just transforms their ability to do their work together. So even if they're absent or they can't come, they communicate with each other. They, you know, make their work up in other ways. And I'm not even involved in that. Right? One of them has a.. is there a Discord server, is that a thing?

Elizabeth Hoover [00:18:32] Yes.

Liz Wardle [00:18:32] One of the groups made themselves a Discord server. And so when somebody wasn't there, you know, I said, is he all right? And they were like, yeah, he's he's communicating. We're in touch with our partner. You know, they care about it in a completely different way than if it's, you know, they have a reading response they have to give to me, and there's really no good reason why they need to get it to me on Tuesday. You know, but there is a good reason why they need to get their grant to their partner done by the time the grant deadline rolls around. So I think it just makes a huge difference to have a real audience that, you know, would enable your work to actually mediate activity, do something in the world in a way that school writing just typically does not do.

Rena Perez [00:19:15] Right. And that's what we want them to see about their writing, is that it has the power to get things done, to communicate with others, to build community. And by giving them that authentic audience, it allows them to see that in action and get that experience. What would help convince ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs that capstones are a beneficial experience for them to end their education with?

Elizabeth Hoover [00:19:35] Well, I don't know. I don't think it's an ending. Right. I think what we're pointing to is that it is a beginning. It is a way to, you know, you rehearse things maybe earlier in your career as you're taking other courses for your liberal education and or your major and your minors. But then once you are getting ready to be in the real world, I mean, this is the moment--it is an important moment--for you to think about your impact and for you to think about a problem or problems that you are passionate about and that you perhaps already engage. And then how do you begin to approach solving them? Approach communicating to audiences about awareness and or solutions. So I think it is the place where they are at the center and they become to drive the learning, maybe more so than in other points of their career.

Rena Perez [00:20:33] Yeah, I think that's such an important point and I really love that reframing of it just being the beginning. It's the launching point to the next step as much as it is the culmination of this one. And I think that's a really great way to frame it to ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs that this can be a first step of you going out and taking what you've learned at Miami and using it in real world situations.

Liz Wardle [00:20:54] Yeah. And I think we might be missing a great marketing opportunity to, sort of, for our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, but also for everyone else that I do think this is a very special thing that Miami provides. Our entire Miami Plan is really trying to give them the sort of coherent experience across time, thinking about themselves as active learners and problem solvers. And then in the capstone course, they really get a chance to reflect on everything they've learned and everything they know how to do. So I often, you know, start with the skills inventory and try to get them to imagine everything they know and everything they know how to do, whether it was in school or not. And the list, when you put it together for everybody in the class, is really quite astonishing. I mean, our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs are amazing and they know a lot of things, but I think they really need a space where they can say, I'm going to use what I know to solve a problem, but also I want to reflect on what are the challenges of doing that work in the world. So for my class right now, you know, sometimes their nonprofit partners don't get back to them. Sometimes they can't find the information they need. You know, there are just real world problems because, as we know, school and work are very different. One of my favorite books called, you know, Worlds Apart, it's about the difference between school and work, which are worlds apart. And I think that capstones help them get ready for that world. Internships do that, too. But I think this capstone is really the place since almost all the ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs are getting ready to go work--to recognize that in a work environment, it's not about you, the learner, it's about the project and, and the, you know, the work environment. And so I think that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs have an opportunity to see this as sort of a soft launch or a safe space to try out everything they know in order to do real work in the world. And that's I think that's really cool. And I think it's a very special thing because of the environment at Miami that we provide to our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs.

Rena Perez [00:22:54] Yeah, absolutely. It's structured as real experiential learning.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:22:58] I'm also thinking, too, this is it's a very unique opportunity where they're in a collaborative space and so it is a place for them to really hone the pillar collaboration and innovation with one another to receive feedback, to receive support, to encourage reflection and encourage perhaps new avenues, new ways of thinking and knowing. So it's also maybe a culminating part of their work with one another in maybe a surprising way. And that could be they're working in a team, but it could also be they're not in a team, but they need to interact with their peers so that they can move forward and make different approaches to change. 

Rena Perez [00:23:44] Yeah. So whether it is actually structured as a team project, there's still this element of collaboration where ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs learn from each other in this space. I really love, Liz, the idea of starting with a strengths inventory--just taking stock, having an opportunity to really think about everything you've taken from your experience at Miami, how other people have taken different things, how they complement one another and how they can be used together to collaborate on a particular project or problem.

Liz Wardle [00:24:10] Yeah. And I think that, you know, what Elizabeth Hoover and I do a lot together and separately is really think about how do you support faculty to create that environment? Because it's not typical of a usual classroom. And so I think that we all need some help too, and thinking about if that's what we want to do, then we've got to set things up in a way that help ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs actually do that. And so, you know, often they will say, I don't know how to do this. And I'll say, I don't know how to do it either. Let's find out who else in the class actually does. And there's always someone who does. And then for them to be going to each other and asking, you know, how do you use this piece of software?  How do you use this tool? Or, you know, right now there's a team where one of them doesn't mind making a phone call and the other one really minds. And so, you know, he takes responsibility for all the phone calls, but she takes responsibility for the written emails to their partner. And I just think that it's really important for them to learn that none of us know everything. And so we've all got to lean on each other. And this will be definitely true for them in the workplace. And so I think it's also important for us to help faculty learn how you set it up that way, because you've got to create the environment where you don't look to me, you look to each other and that I don't know and you all can figure it out. And I just think that school has often been, you know, about me getting my grade, and now it's about you all working toward a common good together, and you need each other. And I am really proud of our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs. Though this semester when they first got in their teams, I had them write a procedural memo, which was my favorite thing to do in this in this class, where you say, "here's our team, here's our team philosophy, here's what we expect of each other and here's what's going to happen if members of our team drop the ball." And I could hear this one team--I don't know what was happening, but they were having a really good time. They were taking mad notes. And I said, "What are you doing? And they said, "We're each discussing our strengths and weaknesses so that we can clearly figure out who needs to do what role." And I thought, well, what a great idea and I didn't tell you to do that. And so that just makes me so happy that Miami has prepared them in that way to do that kind of work. So sometimes I just think as faculty, we need to get out of the way to help them be able to do that.

Rena Perez [00:26:35] Yeah, As you said, it's a ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ driven opportunity. And so to step back and we're not used to that, sometimes that's a little uncomfortable, I think, for instructors, but to be willing to trust in that our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs have learned so much at their time here and now it's time to put it in action and let them kind of drive that work together as a team or as a class.

Liz Wardle [00:26:53] Yeah.

Rena Perez [00:26:55] So I think that brings us to another important point that I wanted to touch on in our podcast today, which is thinking about designing and teaching Capstone. We've talked a lot about kind of the importance of them for ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs and their different qualities, but as we are kind of organizing our podcast, an important part of "how we do it" is "how we teach it." I'd love to reflect with you both on what you found to be the elements of designing and teaching Capstone effectively. So Elizabeth Hoover, what are some of the best practices that come to your mind for designing capstone projects?

Elizabeth Hoover [00:27:26] I think that the primary part is, I mean, starting with a problem and not necessarily the solution or the end goal, but what is the question? What bothers you? What do you what what what do you need to investigate? What do you need to explore? And then, as a faculty member facilitating that, as we just discussed, their peers, their colleagues are going to play a significant role in shaping their progress. But the faculty member is a support to help guide them so that they can move in different directions, but in a very specific way. So to incorporate scaffolding, to make sure there are check points that are deliberate, to ensure that, you know, if something is really challenging, how are you going to navigate it and who in the room can help you navigate that? Other than that, I'm trying to think of other things. I, I don't know.

Rena Perez [00:28:30] I think starting with a question is really important because, again, I think as instructors, we tend to want to know the answer at the end goal, the end point. What will this look like? What will ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs complete? But being willing to just live in that uncertainty and just start with what do we want to know? What do we want to learn more about? And that starts with looking around us to the questions that we're asking in our everyday lives, and in our communities. And so I think for those instructors who are designing a capstone project for the first time, just thinking about what questions are coming to your mind that you think ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs would care about too.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:29:01] And who are the audiences that are going to interface with, that are impacted? Who are the stakeholders? I think that then that's the next thing to think through. And then what sources are out there and what resources are out there that can help you begin to make progress?

Liz Wardle [00:29:20] And I do think that is a shift for a lot of faculty because this is not a content coverage course. No, it's really a project course. And so I feel like your job as a faculty member is to identify, as Elizabeth said, sort of the problem space. And so, which is why I always, you know, I'm like, okay, let's look at ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ debt or let's look at misconceptions of writing or, you know, whatever it may be. And especially when these are in the various disciplines, you know, I know people have done them on all sorts of things, you know, public health problems, rivers, you know, I mean, there's all sorts of things. And your job, I think, is to shape the problem and then give ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs a chance to immerse themselves in that problem and then set up, you know, well, what's going to happen? How are you going to walk them through? And something I hope that we do is figure out now that I understand this problem, what would I do next if I wanted to intervene? And so then I think we become really like project managers instead of sort of classroom teachers, which is a shift for some people. But I think once you can wrap your head around it as a faculty member, it's very exciting because they just do things that I could never have imagined and I personally can't do. And so that's really fun to watch. It makes me so proud of them. But I think for faculty, it does require a little bit of a shift in sort of how we even plan and execute a class.

Rena Perez [00:30:47] Yeah, you're taking on a different role because you're focusing more on the overarching structure and scaffolding without necessarily knowing how exactly the details will come together. So it's a really interesting perspective to then have on the project.

Liz Wardle [00:31:02] And you really don't know where it's going to go. I could never have said what they were all going to make in those two capstone classes that I've taught recently. I just couldn't have imagined it ahead of time what they were going to create and the genres they were going to make and the tools that they would need to do it. And so I think you just have to let go of the fact that you need to know whatever it is they're going to end up doing or that you need to know how to do that. What you know is your content. You have expertise in your discipline. But they have to figure out how you solve a problem and you can constantly be sending them to resources. And I think that's the other skill we have that maybe we forget that we have. We know lots of people. We know the librarians who can help you. We know people in the community who can maybe hook you up with what you need. But that's sort of where we need to limit our involvement there while they get going on solving the problem.

Rena Perez [00:32:03] And it can be tough to not just jump in and want to kind of micromanage more, but it's important that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs get the experience in kind of figuring things out for themselves and that we are just kind of then supports to that.

Liz Wardle [00:32:15] Yeah. And I think that this does not mean that you just send them off and hope it works out.

Rena Perez [00:32:21] Right.

Liz Wardle [00:32:21] Right. It doesn't mean there's no scaffolding or structure. It just means that what they create is really up to them and made by them. My nephew was in--I don't remember what you call like discovery, something, he's like 13 and they have this discovery, I can't remember the name of it. But anyway, these kids are given problems and then they have to solve them. And the parents who coach them can do nothing. They just make sure they get to where they need to go. And I think this is sort of similar in the fact that you get them there, but then they have to make it. And I think that the more we can do that and showcase, which I think is what the Office of Liberal Ed can also do and has been trying to do, is like showcase what these look like so that faculty can start to really embrace that and get excited about it.

Rena Perez [00:33:15] Yeah. And I think that is what's exciting to not know--it's something different every time, something fresh, every time that you teach because it's so ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ-driven and to what their skills and interests are.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:33:25] I think I like positioning it as even when you do suggest certain sources and resources, it's like, well now you get to choose your own adventure in terms of how those are going to help you with your inquiry.

Rena Perez [00:33:37] Right. We're making a suggestion, but you still have agency because you're the decision maker who has to decide. Yeah.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:33:42] And that there are consequences. Right, to those decisions. And different people might be impacted or you might change your direction entirely. Right?

Rena Perez [00:33:52]  Right. And I think that kind of speaks to what you're saying is one of maybe the more challenging aspects of designing and teaching these capstone projects for faculty, which is just that you have to be willing to be flexible and adapt and just again, not have a pre-planned notion for where exactly things need to end up or any expectation that way.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:34:11] So it's an interesting line, right? To support and let go. To facilitate and yet trust. It might be a threshold concept.

Liz Wardle [00:34:23] It might be.

Rena Perez [00:34:24] It just might be! It seems like we keep running into those things no matter what. Alright, well, I feel like you probably already have answered the last question I had about, like, leaving faculty with a piece of advice or guidance if they were to design a capstone project. Sounds like, you know, this balance of being supportive and letting go, but also, you know, drawing on your expertise but allowing ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs to bring in theirs. Is there any other final remarks that you would give to faculty who are designing for the first time?

Elizabeth Hoover [00:34:55] I think faculty to faculty connections, right? So to yes, attend certain seminars in which faculty are discussing what they've tried, how they have forged connections with communities, the directions that the ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs have taken in terms of form and genre. So I guess not thinking about yourself in a vacuum of the capstone, because that's contrary to the whole purpose of the capstone and what the ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs are doing, right? So we as a Miami community making connections and listening to one another and how we're encouraging this type of deep learning in capstones is important.

Rena Perez [00:35:31] Yeah, modeling to ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs that collaboration and that you're not expected to know at all or be able to do it all.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:35:37] It's meta, yeah!

Rena Perez [00:35:37] Very much so!

Liz Wardle [00:35:37] I second that because I think it's easy to get used to doing teaching the way you've always taught and that what works for your discipline and this for many people is just different than what they typically do. And so lots of people are doing it very well and in very different ways. And so connecting with them is what I've typically seen is where people get excited. You know, they start to see,  oh you can do that?  Oh your ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs actually do that? And I think related to that, don't underestimate your ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs.

Rena Perez [00:36:10] Yeah.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:36:11] Yes!

Liz Wardle [00:36:11] They're so smart and they're so able to do things. And I think often, you know, I've heard people say, well, they could write a proposal for a research project, but they couldn't actually do one or they could, you know, write a fake grant proposal, but not a real one. They can do all of those things and many, many more. But you just have to set up the structure to support them. And I think the way you start to realize what's possible is to connect with other people.

Rena Perez [00:36:37] Yeah, see those possibilities and also see what our Miami ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs have done. Well, thank you both for sharing all of your insights about capstone projects, your experiences. And also I just think your final note about just trusting in your ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs and their expertise and being willing to see what amazing things they can do is just such a great framing for thinking about capstone projects.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:36:59] It's because our ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs are amazing.

Rena Perez [00:37:01] They are!

Liz Wardle [00:37:02] They're the best.

Rena Perez [00:37:02] Yes, and it's also about trusting in the educational experience that we've given them, too, and knowing that that has brought them to this point. Anything else you'd like to plug or share that you have upcoming?

Liz Wardle [00:37:14] Just be on the lookout for workshops through the Howe Center. Often,we do workshops with the Office of Liberal Ed, and quite frequently, they're about capstone projects. So, please come!

Elizabeth Hoover [00:37:25] Yes.

Rena Perez [00:37:25] Keep an eye out! Alright well, thank you both! It was so interesting to hear from Liz and Elizabeth about how capstones can connect ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs learning and skills and engage them in collaborating and communicating with outside audiences. We thank them both again for their time, their willingness to be the "guinea pig" guests for our first episode, and for their unwavering dedication to teaching and learning at Miami and beyond. And thank you, listeners, for tuning into this first episode. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast wherever you're listening from, so you'll know right away when we release our next episode on [drum roll sound] op-eds. Check out our capstone resource linked in the episode description below, where you can find more guidance on and examples of capstone projects. And don't forget, if there's topics of kinds of writing that you'd like to hear about in future podcast episodes, write to us at hwac@miamioh.edu. We'd love to hear from you! Alrighty, folks, and that....is howe we do it. Talk to you again soon!

Elizabeth Hoover [00:38:27] I do like the ad lib.

Rena Perez [00:38:28] But you have to edit the ad lib.

Elizabeth Hoover [00:38:30] I'm on the same page.

Liz Wardle [00:38:31] I don't like the podcasts where people just talk about whatever for as long as they want.

Rena Perez [00:38:37] The weather, what's in and out....

Elizabeth Hoover [00:38:39] Some of them are like an hour and a half long.

Rena Perez [00:38:43] Yeah.

Liz Wardle [00:38:43] Yeah. I want you to get to the -- bring on the water as they said about the Titanic.

Rena Perez [00:38:48] I love that comparison. [laughter] Alright, well, then, let's bring on the water, folks! [laughter] 

Rena [00:00:05] ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ to the initial teaser of the "This is Howe We Do It" podcast from the Howe Center for Writing Excellence at ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ. Should we have some celebratory music, hear some sort of horn sound? I feel like we need a hype up sound.

 Will [00:00:20] Something like this?

 Rena [00:00:23] Yeah. That's perfect. So, hey, everyone, we are so excited to have you listening to our teaser episode of the This is Howe We Do It podcast, and we hope that it will leave you wanting to hear even more. So first, let's talk about who we are and what we do. If you aren't yet familiar with the Howe Center for Writing Excellence, you can find us on the first floor of King Library. The Howe was founded in 1996 by Roger and Joyce Howe, who are alumni here at Miami. We say our Howe Center for Writing Excellence has two sides, one for writing and one for teaching. Our Howe Writing Center, directed by Lizzie Hutton, is the writing side. Our writing center supports all writers, whether ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs, faculty or staff, on any stage of their writing projects and at any stage of their process. Our Howe Writing across the Curriculum program directed by Liz Wardle, supports teachers, whether faculty or grad ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs with their teaching, particularly around teaching about or with writing. Feel free to read more about our center at our website or reach out with any questions about how we can support you. But now it's time to introduce ourselves. So I'm your host, Rena Perez, one of the graduate assistant directors for the Howe Writing Across The Curriculum program. And please say hi to our behind the scenes executive producer, Will Chesher, who's the other graduate assistant director for the Howe Writing Across The Curriculum program. Hi Will.

 Will [00:01:42] Hi, Rena. Executive producer sounds so official, it sounds so good. I'm just going to put that on my CV. But yeah. So while listeners won't be directly hearing from me in future episodes of the podcast, we wanted to create this initial teaser episode to go over the mission and vision of the podcast and give you all a preview of what's to come. This is a new kind of programing from us in the House Center for Writing Excellence, and we can't wait to jump in. So Rena, can you talk about the mission and vision of the podcast?

 Rena [00:02:08] Absolutely. Will, because it feels like everyone has a podcast these days, right? But we wanted to start one, too, because we wanted to think critically about the teaching and learning of writing. We want this to include thinking about different types of writing contexts for writing and how writing impacts us as teachers and ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs academically, civically, personally and professionally. But we don't just want to think about this amongst ourselves. We want to hear from and highlight faculty and ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs at Miami who are doing this work and share it in a way that's accessible to everyone. Hence this podcast to show others that this is how we do it. Yeah.

 Will [00:02:41] I love it. But now this is super exciting. So what will this look like? What do you envision this podcast being?

 Rena [00:02:46] That's a good question. Well, so we want this podcast to include open and collaborative conversations with teachers and ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs about writing in all of its different forms in order to spotlight the innovative thinking, writing and teaching happening on our campus and in our community.

 Will [00:03:02] There's so much great teaching and learning happening at Miami, and I think it can be challenging at times to try and share these stories and get them out there. I know we have faculty spotlights, various resources and articles on the Howe Center for Writing Excellence website, but we often don't get to hear directly from the faculty and ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs that we spotlight.

 Rena [00:03:19] Yes, exactly. So as part of our mission, we wanted to speak directly to faculty and ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs about their stories, hear their experiences and ideas about how these different forms of writing that they have engaged with as writers and teachers have worked for them. So, listeners, here's what we've got in store for you for our first few episodes in the upcoming months. You'll hear about capstone projects, Op Eds and ePortfolios as different forms of writing that ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs and instructors are using in ways that make ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈ writing authentic instead of performative. You'll hear perspectives from faculty and ¾Ã¾ÃÈÈs across disciplines as they reflect on their process for composing or teaching in these different genres of writing.

 Will [00:04:00] And also as a way to extend the conversation beyond the podcast. We have a variety of resources available on the Howe Center for Writing Excellence website, which will be linked in the comments and description below alongside our existing resources for each of the podcast episodes. We'll have a dedicated page about that topic with links, annotated resources, assignment prompts and examples that you can adapt and use for your own context.

Rena [00:04:22] Whoa. There's so many resources to check out. Well, that's all we have for today, but we cannot wait to dive in to our first episode in the next few weeks. In the meantime, like and subscribe to our podcast on Spotify, Apple Music or wherever you listen to your podcasts. to be the first to know when you have a new episode from us. If there's topics or kinds of writing that you'd like to hear about in future podcast episodes. Write to us at each HWAC@miamioh.edu,  we'd love to hear from you. Alrighty, folks. And that is...Howe We Do It. Talk to you again soon.

Will [00:05:01] Let's do it. Yeah. Hype this up!

Rena [00:05:03] This is how we do it.

Will [00:05:04] This is how we do it. This is how we do it. That's going to be the outro.